Let's talk about the West

[NoKYC]

They just might start increasing taxes. First it can be 3% which would be still considered low for most people, then it can be increased to 5%. You get the idea

While true, by the time they get to 5%, our former home countries will be at 75% for anyone earning >= 100k a year. Gotta finance that UBI. As I heard, it's extremely hard to introduce an income tax in a country where there's none than to raise it in a country where it's well established.

But for now, Dubai ticks a lot of the boxes for a lot of people, and as long as it remain that way, people will still chose it as their main hub whether it's for business, banking or general lifestyle

Exactly why I choose Dubai over the Caribbean. No flight to the US to get out, well maintained, safe, can go anywhere on a whim with Emirates. Not a lot of strings attached (be there once every 6 months).

I also see the UAE as the Switzerland of the Middle East. AFAIK they do not have problems with any neighboring countries, do not take sides, have a pretty lax policy concerning Islamic laws being applied, etc.

In the end, you have to choose your battles.

 

[FixieHartmann]

Very interesting discussion. Similar to most of you I am extremely happy that I left my (western) European home country a while ago and cut all ties.

@Fred - do you have the feeling that it will be harder in the future to set up a home base in the UAE. Will it be like Singapore where it used to be easier but now you can only move if you have millions in net worth?

 

[Fred]

Very interesting discussion. Similar to most of you I am extremely happy that I left my (western) European home country a while ago and cut all ties.

@Fred - do you have the feeling that it will be harder in the future to set up a home base in the UAE. Will it be like Singapore where it used to be easier but now you can only move if you have millions in net worth?

No - I don't think so.

UAE wants to attract a lot of money within the next 10 years - just now they extended the Golden Visa Program for more Professionals including Business Man.

To attract new money the most important is to have a straightforward setup process.

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/...ow-includes-managers-CEOs-six-more-categories
However for sure the banking for sure will be getting tighter each year - so get your foot into the doorstep asap.

I see daily a lot of setups from back 2015/2016 with still up and running banking in the UAE but no bank would any longer consider such setups in 2021 - so I think if you setup now you can run the scheme the next 5-10 years for sure.

 

[troubled soul]

This I agree with you. But Im not sure this 0% tax will last for another decade.

Personal View:
Business Tax will come sooner or later but with Very low rate and with limited scope as "VAT" .
If they make a rule to just "Declare your personal asset/income", So many people will leave Dubai in Second. Forget about Imposing Personal Tax.

 

[FixieHartmann]

Really depends on a lot of factors.
I love Russia but the language is difficult and the weather is harsh.
Forget China, they will dominate the world for user but they are - correctly - focused on their own people and citizenship is very difficult (I don’t even know if it possible at all!).
I chose Latin America, warm people, great food, wonderful weather, you can swim, ski, whatever you want.
Other people chose South East Asia.
All those countries allow take their citizenship.

Which places in Latin America do you recommend, especially considering personal safety. Any places where you can get by with limited Spanish?

 

[FixieHartmann]

I said in another thread, that citizenship doesn't really matter anymore, having a "western" passport and a Caribbean passport (just in case) + good residency is what you really need.

For example, having a Maltese passport + st Lucia passport (As a backup) and having a residency in a place that suits your specific needs, that place could be Dubai, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Switzerland or a mix between a couple of countries, so it really depends on your needs.

Do you like good banking, a lot of activities, shopping, 0% taxes, good networking? then you go to Dubai.

Do you like a mix between NYC like urban life and nature, nice people, cheapish luxury lifestyle, and a good tax system? then Malaysia is the answer.

Do you like a strong banking system, favorable tax regime, melting culture hub, good networking and don't mind living in a small country? then look no further than Singapore.

And the list goes on. but just asking generalized questions, will get you generalized answers. So, see what fit your needs and go from there.

Just out of curiosity - do you think that Switzerland won’t be part of the downfall of the west? I’d love to think that too, however it literally being in heart of Europe, I don’t know, I have my doubts that they are able to resist the general development.

 

[JackAlabama]

Just out of curiosity - do you think that Switzerland won’t be part of the downfall of the west? I’d love to think that too, however it literally being in heart of Europe, I don’t know, I have my doubts that they are able to resist the general development.

I tend to a yes.
Switzerland is not what it was during WW2, not even remotely, they adopt what the eu tells them to do just with some delay. Just recently evident again with a widespread implementation of the covid passport.
The chf is also not what it was and now the snb has just a 200bn equity of 1000bn with mostly FX assets of about the size of 900bn.
https://data.snb.ch/de/topics/snb#!/cube/snbbipoAlso the private households have a very high debt burden (among the highest in the world, mostly due to housing which is also very high up in the sky price wise), just the public household has much less debt than the average western country.

Your best bet if you want to stay in the west, will be some parts of the USA which might be able to withstand somewhat extreme events like a separation / civil war or what not or generally rural areas in eu.

 

[EuroKiss]

Which places in Latin America do you recommend, especially considering personal safety. Any places where you can get by with limited Spanish?

No one with limited Spanish!
General rule is a good knowledge of the country where you chose to live.
Said that, Mexico, Panama, even Colombia. If you avoid specific zones, safety is just like any other country in the world, I’d say Polanco in Mexico City is way safer than Hyde Park in London, nobody stabs you…

 

[OJ333]

I tend to a yes.
Switzerland is not what it was during WW2, not even remotely, they adopt what the eu tells them to do just with some delay. Just recently evident again with a widespread implementation of the covid passport.
The chf is also not what it was and now the snb has just a 200bn equity of 1000bn with mostly FX assets of about the size of 900bn.
https://data.snb.ch/de/topics/snb#!/cube/snbbipoAlso the private households have a very high debt burden (among the highest in the world, mostly due to housing which is also very high up in the sky price wise), just the public household has much less debt than the average western country.

Your best bet if you want to stay in the west, will be some parts of the USA which might be able to withstand somewhat extreme events like a separation / civil war or what not or generally rural areas in eu.

I'd say the conservative mountain states in USA and the Balkans (or perhaps Poland / Hungary) in Europe

 

[EuroKiss]

I'd say the conservative mountain states in USA and the Balkans (or perhaps Poland / Hungary) in Europe

Poland is too scary of Russia, they are quickly becoming a puppet of the US just like Baltics and Ukrainians.
About US conservatives states, they only will save themselves through a real civil war.

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Just out of curiosity - do you think that Switzerland won’t be part of the downfall of the west? I’d love to think that too, however it literally being in heart of Europe, I don’t know, I have my doubts that they are able to resist the general development.

Hard to know. Switzerland although "neutral" in theory, in practice, it's not "neutral" at all, or to put into better words, it's impossible for them to stay "neutral", they rely too much on the EU, they have no resources, they have no army, they have nothing, add to that that they bend over easily to whatever their western allies tell them.

Bank secrecy is practically dead in Switzerland, Hell, you can make an argument that bank secrecy/privacy in Austria (A European country) is better than Switzerland, plus, to have a real secrecy in Switzerland, you and your money have to stay in Switzerland, and the moment you or your money leave the country, all secrecy is gone.

And swiss people love to bend over to EU regulations, most of them voted yes to EU gun control regulations without any reason and mind you, these laws were perfectly fine.

Also, another interesting things is that the EU wanted to make another framework deal with Switzerland, because as EU Commission Vice-President Maros Sefcovic put it, this deal is "old". and he wasn't the only one who complained like a F bi*ch, German politician Michael Roth also said "whoever wants to benefit from the single market must also play by its rules" (source) which imo is a fair game, but I know he doesn't mean it like that, what he actually means "you have lower taxes than us and we don't like that, so please stop".

But to me and a lot of people surprise, Switzerland actually had some balls, As Switzerland's 26 cantons warned the swiss government against signing off on the framework deal “at any price”. and to my surprise again, the swiss government listened to them and flipped the middle finger to the EU and walked away from the deal, but a lot of experts saying that Switzerland is simply delaying the inevitable, and sooner or later, they will have to bend over to the EU, because they are economically dependent on the European single market, whether they like it or not.
Here is an Excellent piece that talks about this in more detail: The EU-Swiss fallout shows the UK is right to go it alone

Switzerland is a classic example of the saying "victim of their own success". They relied too much on their brand, relied too much on the EU, stopped innovating, and their future remains uncertain, and thus begs the question, will they be shunned away from the EU? or will they bend over to not suffer more from the economic pressure that EU will exert on them?.

I vote the latter, but I hope that's not the case.

 

[BigUnicorn]

Bank secrecy is practically dead in Switzerland, Hell, you can make an argument that bank secrecy/privacy in Austria (A European country) is better than Switzerland, plus, to have a real secrecy in Switzerland, you and your money have to stay in Switzerland, and the moment you or your money leave the country, all secrecy is gone.

Great post on all other points, but could you please explain how Austria could be more private than Switzerland? I don’t know much about the former.

 

[countpinky]

Hard to know. Switzerland although "neutral" in theory, in practice, it's not "neutral" at all, or to put into better words, it's impossible for them to stay "neutral", they rely too much on the EU, they have no resources, they have no army, they have nothing, add to that that they bend over easily to whatever their western allies tell them.

Bank secrecy is practically dead in Switzerland, Hell, you can make an argument that bank secrecy/privacy in Austria (A European country) is better than Switzerland, plus, to have a real secrecy in Switzerland, you and your money have to stay in Switzerland, and the moment you or your money leave the country, all secrecy is gone.

And swiss people love to bend over to EU regulations, most of them voted yes to EU gun control regulations without any reason and mind you, these laws were perfectly fine.

Also, another interesting things is that the EU wanted to make another framework deal with Switzerland, because as EU Commission Vice-President Maros Sefcovic put it, this deal is "old". and he wasn't the only one who complained like a F bi*ch, German politician Michael Roth also said "whoever wants to benefit from the single market must also play by its rules" (source) which imo is a fair game, but I know he doesn't mean it like that, what he actually means "you have lower taxes than us and we don't like that, so please stop".

But to me and a lot of people surprise, Switzerland actually had some balls, As Switzerland's 26 cantons warned the swiss government against signing off on the framework deal “at any price”. and to my surprise again, the swiss government listened to them and flipped the middle finger to the EU and walked away from the deal, but a lot of experts saying that Switzerland is simply delaying the inevitable, and sooner or later, they will have to bend over to the EU, because they are economically dependent on the European single market, whether they like it or not.
Here is an Excellent piece that talks about this in more detail: The EU-Swiss fallout shows the UK is right to go it alone

Switzerland is a classic example of the saying "victim of their own success". They relied too much on their brand, relied too much on the EU, stopped innovating, and their future remains uncertain, and thus begs the question, will they be shunned away from the EU? or will they bend over to not suffer more from the economic pressure that EU will exert on them?.

I vote the latter, but I hope that's not the case.

experts

I’ve begun having allergies to this word

 

[NoKYC]

Personal View:
Business Tax will come sooner or later but with Very low rate and with limited scope as "VAT" .
If they make a rule to just "Declare your personal asset/income", So many people will leave Dubai in Second. Forget about Imposing Personal Tax.

From what I've heard, it's easier to raise taxes that to pass a tax where there's little to none. Let's be honest, if I have to pay Dubai government 5-10% tax, the western countries will be at 75%. I would have gladly stay in my country if they would have charge me 5-10% tax lol.

I also have the feeling that the UAE won't be affected, just like Singapore. Reason being the goal seems to be a digital ID system. It's already in place in both location.

 

[OTR365]

When do you think the SHTF? ... I think 2022-2023 will be the true downfall where things will spiral out of control.

It is almost impossible to get timing right, even if one was right about everything else.

That 2022/2023 would work if the SHTF was a sudden economic collapse. E.g. covid money printing and supply problems lead to high inflation. Interest rates somehow get out of ECB's control, creating a new debt crisis in Europe. Or, Marine Le Pen wins next April's presidential elections in France and (surprisingly) makes good on her promise to ditch the euro. Suddenly all of eurozone is in chaos like Kabul airport, Target2 imbalances hitting countries like Taliban, the IMF not having big enough planes to financially evacuate everyone.

These and other fast crisis are possible, but the really nasty stuff takes more time to play out, even a decade or two. For example, central bank issued digital currencies are a sure way to totalitarian control, but getting from A to B takes at least 10 years. Central banks can't issue digital currencies with full control features initially - people would resist. Therefore the frog (=us) needs to be boiled slowly.

Some sort of totalitarianism is on the way, but the exact nature of the beast seems unknown. In the United States both a woke tyranny or a far-right authoritarian regime are possible. The EU leans heavily to the left, but Central European countries were under Communist rule for 50 years and don't want it back. This is why I think we in Europe still have at least 5-10 years before things get really hairy. But as they say, it is better to be many years too early than one day late. I am very close of getting a resicency outside the EU, and 1-3 years away from getting another citizenship. I am probably late like always, but many of you could get a citizenship from a Caribbean nation in just a few months.

 

[FixieHartmann]

It is almost impossible to get timing right, even if one was right about everything else.

That 2022/2023 would work if the SHTF was a sudden economic collapse. E.g. covid money printing and supply problems lead to high inflation. Interest rates somehow get out of ECB's control, creating a new debt crisis in Europe. Or, Marine Le Pen wins next April's presidential elections in France and (surprisingly) makes good on her promise to ditch the euro. Suddenly all of eurozone is in chaos like Kabul airport, Target2 imbalances hitting countries like Taliban, the IMF not having big enough planes to financially evacuate everyone.

These and other fast crisis are possible, but the really nasty stuff takes more time to play out, even a decade or two. For example, central bank issued digital currencies are a sure way to totalitarian control, but getting from A to B takes at least 10 years. Central banks can't issue digital currencies with full control features initially - people would resist. Therefore the frog (=us) needs to be boiled slowly.

Some sort of totalitarianism is on the way, but the exact nature of the beast seems unknown. In the United States both a woke tyranny or a far-right authoritarian regime are possible. The EU leans heavily to the left, but Central European countries were under Communist rule for 50 years and don't want it back. This is why I think we in Europe still have at least 5-10 years before things get really hairy. But as they say, it is better to be many years too early than one day late. I am very close of getting a resicency outside the EU, and 1-3 years away from getting another citizenship. I am probably late like always, but many of you could get a citizenship from a Caribbean nation in just a few months.

What is your longer term plan, where are you looking to move to and where are you planning to get citizenship?

 

[monsieur1875]

Or, Marine Le Pen wins next April's presidential elections in France and (surprisingly) makes good on her promise to ditch the euro.

A minor note but it seems she dumped that part in her new program (probably because that proved to be - suprinsingly - unpopular).

 

[OTR365]

A minor note but it seems she dumped that part in her new program (probably because that proved to be - suprinsingly - unpopular).

She dropped that? Well, it is not totally unexpected. Alrady many years back she started to change it to "eventually get out of euro".

 

[countpinky]

E.g. covid money printing and supply problems lead to high inflation.

Have a look at UK right now - people are queueing up at petrol stations and store shelves are skinnier than they used to be a few months ago. There was talk in the news that the Army drivers should take over but there aren’t enough qualified drivers anywhere near what’s necessary.
Have a look at Australia - trade workers and truck drivers are out in the streets. Who’s working? Who’s moving supplies?
Have a look at France - people again, out in the streets.

Some sort of totalitarianism is on the way, but the exact nature of the beast seems unknown.

This is correct, but it’s not that unknown. From the pulse of the nations (data I aggregate from normal, regular people) it’s leaning more and more to the right. Forced diversity and erasure of national identity is seems to be a driving factor and then you have gaslighting of unprecedented levels. I’m afraid history will repeat itself.

This is why I think we in Europe still have at least 5-10

I thought so as well, but I’m not so sure anymore, especially with their EU wide taxation coming in 2023.

I fully agree with @Martin Everson that you MUST get out of Europe (I’m even pushing it a bit further and just say The West) if you value any resemblance of freedom.
It is ironic that in 202X you have to go East to find peace, freedom and some sense of normal.

 

[12345]

It is ironic that in 202X you have to go East to find peace, freedom and some sense of normal.

Exactly

Western europe had glorious history but once they reached the top discipline loosened and corruption began

Late Ancient Rome philosopher said that there is more Roman spirit among barbarians or in the provinces than in Rome itself. Same can be said about west now, there is more west in the east