China's Opensource Deepseek outperforms OpenAI GPT-4o

[ActionMan]

As I wrote

Microsoft Probing If DeepSeek-Linked Group Improperly Obtained OpenAI Data
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-linked-group-improperly-obtained-openai-data

It's official now and will result in far more serious consequences for China then their ruse made damage to Silicon Valley corporations.

Oh, the irony—cue the violins. OpenAI built its empire scraping publisher data without paying a cent, right up until they got too big to ignore and had enough VC cash to start playing nice.

Now the IP thieves are whining about stolen IPs? Absolutely priceless.

China vs. the West is the never-ending sitcom I didn’t know I needed. I’ll never get how some people go full nationalist in one breath and then start waving the libertarian flag in the next. “Freedom for me, but not for thee” is peak comedy. Watching these daily slap fights over Russia, China, and the USA is like watching a soap opera where everyone forgot the original plot—we go where it works for us. That’s the whole OCT game. that's why we are all here. remember that folks next time you argue over useless things.

what if DeepSeek gets us there? We win. It’s open-source, people. You can literally run the distilled model on your own machine. What’s the debate here again? i don't get it.

Meanwhile, the NSA has been reading your texts and listening to your bedtime whispers for years. @mraleph, remember Snowden? So much for freedom, huh?

P.S. @mraleph, I usually love your takes, but this one? Come on, mate...

 

[Forester]

It seems that you are simply upset and in denial about China’s advancements in AI, as they have not only improved existing models but, surpassed them. It also appears to be a degree of Sinophobia in your reactions.

Quite frankly, what is sinophobic in establishing a fact that China has an organized theft of IP and smuggling hardware for RE? Perhaps, you don't want those facts to be mentioned anywhere?

Denial? Don't know how models are trained? You provoked a smile from me. Well, this is a way how propaganda is performed - by devaluation comments.

Colleagues, chill a bit
I deeply respect your knowledge and input here; please do not devaluate it by ad personam statements not worth your reputation...

DeepSeek is OpenAI,

Just a question: What are the foundations of this claim? Have you seen the code of OpenAI? AFAIK, it is not publicly available...

 

[daniels27]

Oh, the irony—cue the violins. OpenAI built its empire scraping publisher data without paying a cent, right up until they got too big to ignore and had enough VC cash to start playing nice.

Now the IP thieves are whining about stolen IPs? Absolutely priceless.

China vs. the West is the never-ending sitcom I didn’t know I needed. I’ll never get how some people go full nationalist in one breath and then start waving the libertarian flag in the next. “Freedom for me, but not for thee” is peak comedy. Watching these daily slap fights over Russia, China, and the USA is like watching a soap opera where everyone forgot the original plot—we go where it works for us. That’s the whole OCT game. that's why we are all here. remember that folks next time you argue over useless things.

what if DeepSeek gets us there? We win. It’s open-source, people. You can literally run the distilled model on your own machine. What’s the debate here again? i don't get it.

Meanwhile, the NSA has been reading your texts and listening to your bedtime whispers for years. @mraleph, remember Snowden? So much for freedom, huh?

P.S. @mraleph, I usually love your takes, but this one? Come on, mate...

It is like freedom of speech. The US wants freedom of speech in the countries that are ruled by unwanted rulers. The opposition wants freedom of speech when they want to get back in power. And trust me, the minute those freedom guys are in power, they hoist the flag of control over people.

D

Post in thread 'Trump won, opinions?'

Jan 24, 2025

You know, in the 80's when the left were the minority, they were the liberals. Now, they are the authoritarians. In short, it is always the minority that calls themselves liberal as they benefit from less laws to get (back) into power. Sad truth, the ruling party has no incentive for any liberal rules. Same goes for the US vs. China dispute. The whole freedom of speech lacking in China discussion is not about the west wanting freedom of speech, they just want to rule the others, which is simply much easier if you can control the discourse in other countries.

• daniels27

• 

 

[aniglo22]

Hey I would like to correct some accusations that were made in this fact (most by @mraleph ) .

1. Use of 50k smuggled Nvidia GPU's :
This comes from the report that mentions the use of 50k "Hopper" GPU's .
What you probably forgot that the H800 (that Deepseek is using ) is a export control compliant version .
Even Nvidia is confirming it , that it is compliant with export restrictions : https://wccftech.com/nvidia-says-de...-fully-compliant-with-us-export-restrictions/
2. IP Theft from OpenAI :
The accusation that Deep Seek 'stole' OpenAI's reasoning capabilities is technically impossible, as OpenAI hides their chain-of-thought (https://openai.com/index/learning-to-reason-with-llms#hiding-the-chains-of-thought)
Deep Seek's training data came from two internal sources:
- 600,000 emerged through reinforcement learning
- 200,000 examples were synthesized from their earlier V2.5 model with human quality checks.
And also everyone uses data scraped/collected from the web.

They have been publishing excellent research papers since early 2024
You should read them, they are very well written .

Can you back up your claims with credible sources ?

Sources :
https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948
https://openai.com/index/learning-to-reason-with-llms#hiding-the-chains-of-thought
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-says-de...-fully-compliant-with-us-export-restrictions/
https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948
https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.19437
https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04434

 

[mraleph]

Interesting that Chinese but also Russian naratives are always accepted at face value at OCT where any argument not being within the confines of a propaganda model is stiffled.

IP theft is not synonymous with open source. Period.

You may have a Merzedes-Benz factories outside Germany and they may produce local vehicles. But it'll still be Merzedes-Benz. NVIDIA will still produce AI chips. China will still try -fail - succeed in smuggling them.

Colleagues, chill a bit
I deeply respect your knowledge and input here; please do not devaluate it by ad personam statements not worth your reputation...

Why is naming an obvious devaluating comment - a form of supporting propaganda - a devaluation ad personam

Just a question: What are the foundations of this claim? Have you seen the code of OpenAI? AFAIK, it is not publicly available...

DeepSeek is OpenAI, trained with OpenAI data and powered on Western NVIDIA hardware. So, when you praise the DeepSeek, you are praising the OpenAI's development team and their product that actually created something valuable. Think about that. As a consequence (intended by ruse), you are promoting policy of Chinese theft of foreign IP and smuggling of foreign equipment - you're not praising their original capacities (which they don't have in the first place).

P.S. @mraleph, I usually love your takes, but this one? Come on, mate...

It's interesting how speculative discussions from dubious sources are offered as final counter arguments.

You know, it's also a form of a propaganda support

Hey I would like to correct some accusations that were made in this fact (most by @mraleph ) .

1. Use of 50k smuggled Nvidia GPU's :
This comes from the report that mentions the use of 50k "Hopper" GPU's .
What you probably forgot that the H800 (that Deepseek is using ) is a export control compliant version .
Even Nvidia is confirming it , that it is compliant with export restrictions : https://wccftech.com/nvidia-says-de...-fully-compliant-with-us-export-restrictions/
2. IP Theft from OpenAI :
The accusation that Deep Seek 'stole' OpenAI's reasoning capabilities is technically impossible, as OpenAI hides their chain-of-thought (https://openai.com/index/learning-to-reason-with-llms#hiding-the-chains-of-thought)
Deep Seek's training data came from two internal sources:
- 600,000 emerged through reinforcement learning
- 200,000 examples were synthesized from their earlier V2.5 model with human quality checks.
And also everyone uses data scraped/collected from the web.

They have been publishing excellent research papers since early 2024
You should read them, they are very well written .

Can you back up your claims with credible sources ?

Sources :
https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948
https://openai.com/index/learning-to-reason-with-llms#hiding-the-chains-of-thought
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-says-de...-fully-compliant-with-us-export-restrictions/
https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948
https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.19437
https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04434

Thank you proposing to read a research paper that is well written. But no thank you for patronizing. Credible sources are within your thoughts, right?

This is my last contribution to this community as I don't feel comfortable where propaganda naratives are being subtly enforced and arguments been devalued by a cross hairs And where naming propaganda as propaganda is being met with fire and fury

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/30/chi...ai-claims-not-all-experts-are-convinced-.html

https://aje.io/ieosyp

I wish everybody believing in Chinese wonders a great business success on a Chinese - pardon me, open source - software trained on a smuggled Western hardware - pardon me, export compliant one. Hope that believers will feal at least indiferent if not good with a thought that they are using re-labeled products or service designed by hated and despised West

 

[cryptofriendly]

Calm down everyone, USA is back at it with Tulu.
https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/30/ai2-says-its-new-ai-model-beats-one-of-deepseeks-best/

Wait a few more days and another model will appear. And another. And another.

The really best thing about it is that it's open source as well.
It's refreshing seeing developers turning back to the original spirit of providing value, sharing with others and fostering progress.

I for my part am really delighted seeing OpenAI turn into myspace, not only because of their lies, monopolistic arrogance, and secrecy. At least, there won't be just one Skynet killing off humanity, but they might fight for dominance with each other first.

Let's just embrace it, it's nothing new.

1883, Daimler developed the first prototype of a car engine.
Only three years later, Carl Benz used the engine in the first (Mercedes) car.

Then there were countless other companies developing their own versions, from cars running on coal to combustion cars, electric cars, hydrogen cars, hybrids, etc. Countless companies being inspired by others tech and design, and improving upon it. Nowadays we got BYD and Great Wall motors, that are cheaper and taking over the markets around the world. And what's bad about it, that farmer in Laos or Equador can't afford a Tesla, and thanks to China he gets a chance to own a car as well. There are many negative consequences regarding environment because of that, but who am I to judge? Just look at the pea soup fog in London in the '30s, it's not like western countries have been so much better.