China's Opensource Deepseek outperforms OpenAI GPT-4o

[mraleph]

The big news is it is being given away as open-source which is always a positive for everyone. Not sure why its being touted as a huge "win" for China — at this pace of innovation, the top AI models get replaced by newer models regularly.

The statement "2 months and $6m to develop." is merely marketing, just like "Our model is so intelligent it can't be safely released to the public right now" to "FSD within 2 years" and so on, its just par for course when it comes to contemporary AI development and like all marketing can be safely ignored.

So, the whole point of DeepSeek wonder - powered by NVIDIA's hardware, trained by Western data - was to influence to detriment competition and monetary stability of the West

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live...ended-by-china-s-deepseek?utm_medium=deeplink

Nvidia’s $465 Billion DeepSeek Plunge Is Largest in Market History
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hina-ai-startup-triggers-panic-in-tech-stocks

And it's okay to promote Chinese false naratives, propaganda and activities against West but not to discuss that same malign influence?

 

[void]

call me old school but I still don't fully understand all the fuss about it... 2 years ago basically nobody heard about AI and now people act like they can't even live without it, everything must be labeled as AI powered even if it's just based on simple data analysis and couple of if-elses based on data presented as advanced machine learning...
while undeniably impressive and useful and despite the huge progress made in terms of accessibility it's still early and mostly about buzz words and trendy marketing
now this Chinese thingy can move the market valuation of the most "valuable" companies in the world by tens of billions? how are these models even comparable, what's the methodology of comparison? it smells like a bloody cargo cult and bubble ready to burst

 

[Martin Everson]

@void Totally agree it's the new dot com boom. Just another way for silicon valley to sucker in more money again. The hype is always better than the end product. Silicon valley bros will make billions of the hype and deliver very little if anything in the end for what was spent....lol.

 

[uranium]

 

[daniels27]

View attachment 8631

Won't make it to the US nor the EUSSR. Pretty safe for all tax evaders here

 

[yngmind]

ChatGPT is destroyed: the Chinese from Alibaba outplayed OpenAI — just released Qwen2.5-1M with a MILLION tokens of context.

— This is one of the neural networks with the LARGEST context, ChatGPT and DeepSeek don’t even come close
— You can feed an entire BOOK into the chat and get answers about it
— Speed has been boosted, now up to 7 times faster
— Web search, image generation, and even VIDEO right in the chat

 

[cryptofriendly]

View attachment 8631

You can run it locally, just get a version off github.
Then you won't have to worry about it.

It's not just China:

 

[Martin Everson]

lmao

$500bn investment cancelled? He sounds humbled. It's so easy to get hoodwinked by silicon valley....lol

 

[Martin Everson]

**Trigger warning**. If easily upset at anything China related please ignore this post...thx

According to ASPI China leads the world in 57 out of 64 critical technologies. The US leads the other 7 .


--- quote start

The US led in 60 of 64 technologies in the five years from 2003 to 2007, but in the most recent five years (2019–2023) is leading in seven. China led in just three of 64 technologies in 2003–2007 but is now the lead country in 57 of 64 technologies in 2019–2023, increasing its lead from our rankings last year (2018–2022), where it was leading in 52 technologies.

--- quote end

This includes AI Algorithms and hardware accelerators. The game of catchup and overtake is almost complete. It is truly now a battle between Chinese in America and Chinese in China....lol.

https://techtracker.aspi.org.au/

 

[drillbill]

No wonder China is going to win the tech war long term.

 

[Martin Everson]

China is on the escalator going up and U.S is on the escalator going down. Both are at the point where they cross eyes with each other and each one knows exactly which direction each one is moving in. It is just uncomfortable for one party to have to deal with that reality when it comes to technology .

 

[aquatone]

I use a lot of AI tools for my work, and Deepseek is really great. Semi-censored and less restrictions. I stopped paying for chatgpt since Deepseek came out.

US-based AI tools are too censored and have too many restrictions. I believe China will overtake the US at this rate.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Ok but it doesn’t work any longer:

 

[mraleph]

Students from China become engineers and scientists educated on MIT, Stanford, Berkely and other Ivy League and prime universities and institutes in US. Again, Western and Russian knowledge and hardware and Chinese copycat. China won't get anywhere. This is their destructive but futile atempt to disrupt the looming tarrifs, Panama canal takeover and financial markets. They properly anticipated the damage they'll sustain so they pre-emptively put a strike.

For how long the hype and propaganda can outperform the reality? And above else, why all this Chinese propaganda?

 

[Forester]

Regarding Russo-Western relations; it's complicated Though, the current state of affairs do not change the fact that we're natural allies. Far greater cultural differences exist across Europe and America then between the West and Russia.

Well, I (hopefully) understand what you mean. I still think that from the historical perspective you are right, yet nowadays it is really complicated – but let's put it aside, it's OT here.

In any case, we definitely agree that China newer was, is not and in a foreseable future will not be a Western ally but a firm competitor.

The balance state is cooperation, whatever is the narative on both sides. Till naratives' converge, we're observing embargo and sanctions compliance

I second this.

Regading Chinese theft and copycat; they're developing railways - after they've stollen the IP and blueprints. They've experienced socio-economic development due to the fact that West transfered manufacturing to China.

Yes. And?
BTW, the history repeats – once upon a time, Europeans stole Chinese IP regarding gunpowder, paper, porcelain (yes, “china” ), etc... Pretty good.

Now is reverse and will have detrimental influence to economy and social fabric. China will collapse in next 10 years.

To be honest, I would be quite happy if you were right. Yet I am recalling e.g. the predictions how Russia will inevitably collapse after 3-4 months of sanctions
Seriously, I doubt. Their inner market is capable enough to drive all their economy, in the future, I am afraid.

And above that, of all Asian nations, China is the most hated and feared; not liked by their own ethnic groups, India, VietNam, Koreas, Japan, Filipines.

Yes. Do they care? And should they care?

Regarding DeepSeek; kind of a in the game, so, wouldn't even use the source code

Free software is free to use and not to use as well

Regarding smugled hardware; if the PRC is capable for anything else then theft and copycat, they would have original ideas and capacities - which they lack. So, I wouldn't be surprised that DeepSeek is using Western training data and not only hardware.

Well... Do not underestimate your enemy.

The PRC flourished massively selling cheap goods to the world. Things are becoming complicated for them now as their model is collapsing. Same thing with DeepSeek; another Chinese copycat and propaganda.

Where do you see signs of a collapse?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live...ended-by-china-s-deepseek?utm_medium=deeplink

Nvidia’s $465 Billion DeepSeek Plunge Is Largest in Market History
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hina-ai-startup-triggers-panic-in-tech-stocks

Well, yes: Never underestimate your enemy

View attachment 8631

Are you surprised?

 

[mraleph]

Well, I (hopefully) understand what you mean. I still think that from the historical perspective you are right, yet nowadays it is really complicated – but let's put it aside, it's OT here.

In any case, we definitely agree that China newer was, is not and in a foreseable future will not be a Western ally but a firm competitor.


I second this.


Yes. And?
BTW, the history repeats – once upon a time, Europeans stole Chinese IP regarding gunpowder, paper, porcelain (yes, “china” ), etc... Pretty good.


To be honest, I would be quite happy if you were right. Yet I am recalling e.g. the predictions how Russia will inevitably collapse after 3-4 months of sanctions
Seriously, I doubt. Their inner market is capable enough to drive all their economy, in the future, I am afraid.


Yes. Do they care? And should they care?


Free software is free to use and not to use as well


Well... Do not underestimate your enemy.


Where do you see signs of a collapse?


Well, yes: Never underestimate your enemy


Are you surprised?

We may agree that embargo regime against Russia was a mistake in the first place and couldn't influence decision making process of Russian government. It was a mistake as they are natural allies of the West. So, damage occurred on the side of the sanctions enforcers, except US.

Why Russia didn't collapse - I asked a question in dedicated thread about the future of Russia but haven't got much answers. Russia will certainly sustain any isolation. China can't. And, it's internal market is a problem per se. Their stability depends on an export and sufficit. Once tarrifs and visa regime are applied, no more access to a West. Hence, internal market and society as whole will crumble like a paper Dragon on a fire.

I do not underestimate the enemy. On the contrary. I assessed they they will attempt a disruption operation of a global magnitude. Didn't knew just what.

Research from which Asian nations gunpowder, porcelain and paper came Hint; two different, existing nowadays as wll

China was always an imperial nation with quite bad reputation and will finish its existence in the next decade. Russia, India and US allies will partition it.

 

[Forester]

Students from China become engineers and scientists educated on MIT, Stanford, Berkely and other Ivy League and prime universities and institutes in US.

Yes. The universities accepted them as it seemed to be mutally beneficial. (You are probably aware that they very often were and are the best students.) Who's to blame?

For how long the hype and propaganda can outperform the reality?

What reality do you have in mind?

BTW, a food for thought: Imagine that you have a magic wand that can make anything made in China disappearing. Come to any average Western house and use an incantation. What will remain from the house? IMO, this is a problem, not DeepSeek....

 

[mraleph]

Yes. The universities accepted them as it seemed to be mutally beneficial. (You are probably aware that they very often were and are the best students.) Who's to blame?



What reality do you have in mind?

BTW, a food for thought: Imagine that you have a magic wand that can make anything made in China disappearing. Come to any average Western house and use an incantation. What will remain from the house? IMO, this is a problem, not DeepSeek....

West is to blame for relocating the manufacture to the Asia and particularly China.

For Chinese students, I would be very cautios about their qualities despite nominal grading.

If you familiar with a Taoism, there is a concept of a stratagems - ruses. Chinese employs them constantly. But, for a war and a battle to succeed, a strategy is required. Ruse is only an assistance.

 

[mraleph]

As I wrote

Microsoft Probing If DeepSeek-Linked Group Improperly Obtained OpenAI Data
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-linked-group-improperly-obtained-openai-data

It's official now and will result in far more serious consequences for China then their ruse made damage to Silicon Valley corporations.

 

[Clank]

As I wrote

Microsoft Probing If DeepSeek-Linked Group Improperly Obtained OpenAI Data
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-linked-group-improperly-obtained-openai-data

It's official now and will result in far more serious consequences for China then their ruse made damage to Silicon Valley corporations.

All models use data from other models for training, this is well known.

The innovation of Deepseek is not about the data, but the algorithm used to train the model that makes it 93% more efficient. Apart from this, they made it free for everyone else to use by open sourcing it.

Now all US companies will be able to copy Deepseek.