Thailand Tax -> CC/DC Withdrawals (CDM/ATM)

[JackAlabama]

Yes, yes, and yes again.



Plus, observing for 20 years here ... Thais have a consistent habit of "walking back" any promises after they get your money. Large promises and small ones, never fails.

do you know of another country in Asia where that aint the case? Until today, Im not really sure of any.

 

[wellington]

Because tax freedom in Thailand doesn't require spending half a million dollars. You can get the same result with cheap $1k/year visas, or, if you want to get fancy, a Thai Elite visa at $40k for 10 years.

There is also a $300k investor visa that has no time limit and can be renewed annually forever (decades ago it was a $100k investment, and people from those old visas were grandfathered in and still renew it showing their $100k investment).

In other words, the LTR visa by investment is the worst deal of all of them, by far.



Thai Elite is the easiest of all. The 90-day reports literally take 1 minute nowadays. You can also do them online, or have an agent do them for you.

Buying and managing your own $500k property is not necessarily an stress-free experience. Also, remember that remitting the $500k to buy it would also trigger a tax event if you don't plan accordingly... So you won't be free of planning, even if you decide to overpay.

One thing I will say about Elite is they opened the flood gates - in doing so the ru let in a lot of criminals from Taiwan/China etc

Because of that approach they have an air of suspicion towards Elite akin to how they had for the Education visa.

I will also add if the wife wasn’t pregnant We’d probably would have approached this differently reverting to our old nomad style of

Nov - Jan Swiss
Jan - May Thailand
May - June Bali
June - July East Afrika
July - Aug Swiss
Aug - Nov Thailand

For those thinking of their tax concerns I can highly suggest Bali, Thailand, and East Afrika (Zanzibar, Danai Beach, Nairobi)

If I had 10+M liquid, I will always choose the option that drastically mitigates planning headaches and admin burden. The more money you have the more you should be able to free yourself from rules and controls. But, that's just me.

I won’t give figures but as a basic if anyone has x amount they need it working for them otherwise it’s being debased at a compounded weight / that’s the issue with Thailand's new approach as 10m pretty much isn’t enough to hire a team to manage - you can outsource but with the fees and risk profiles you only get nominal growth (optical) so you’d be forced to manage it which is then potentially bringing it onshore which brings it potentially under the Thai tax ring fence.

One saving grace is imagine is it’s currently only remitted - but I suspect Thailand will introduced a wealth tax at some point for their foreign residents.

do you know of another country in Asia where that aint the case? Until today, Im not really sure of any.

Singapore/HK.

 

[JackAlabama]

One thing I will say about Elite is they opened the flood gates - in doing so the ru let in a lot of criminals from Taiwan/China etc

Because of that approach they have an air of suspicion towards Elite akin to how they had for the Education visa.

Thats not possible, as they always boasted very stringent background checks on the applicants because one has to wait 3 months or more until they come back with the result .
Or are you telling me they just chill for 3 months and then come back with the answer?

I will also add if the wife wasn’t pregnant We’d probably would have approached this differently reverting to our old nomad style of

Nov - Jan Swiss
Jan - May Thailand
May - June Bali
June - July East Afrika
July - Aug Swiss
Aug - Nov Thailand

For those thinking of their tax concerns I can highly suggest Bali, Thailand, and East Afrika (Zanzibar, Danai Beach, Nairobi)

good spots regarding east africa. diani beach is interesting

I won’t give figures but as a basic if anyone has x amount they need it working for them otherwise it’s being debased at a compounded weight / that’s the issue with Thailand's new approach as 10m pretty much isn’t enough to hire a team to manage - you can outsource but with the fees and risk profiles you only get nominal growth (optical) so you’d be forced to manage it which is then potentially bringing it onshore which brings it potentially under the Thai tax ring fence.

One saving grace is imagine is it’s currently only remitted - but I suspect Thailand will introduced a wealth tax at some point for their foreign residents.

when do that it will ruin the place as basically everyone would leave or not comply. The baht is already showing quite some weakness this year and is one of asias worst performers.
That will take time, so theres at least 5-10 good years left before the place ruins itself with socialism. But the world is a large place.

That said its a global trend. So bearer assets are key to survive the upcoming communist grab of existing wealth.

 

[wellington]

Thats not possible, as they always boasted very stringent background checks on the applicants because one has to wait 3 months or more until they come back with the result .
Or are you telling me they just chill for 3 months and then come back with the answer?

They did Interpol checks for mine so I imagine for all others and possibly liaise with the domestic police force also - as well as international (home country) - yet a lot of these people still got the visas.

Also note the second carribean passport now runs through the FBI for similar reasons - was a article implying that a whole back

when do that it will ruin the place as basically everyone would leave or not comply. The baht is already showing quite some weakness this year and is one of asias worst performers.
That will take time, so theres at least 5-10 good years left before the place ruins itself with socialism. But the world is a large place.

That said its a global trend. So bearer assets are key to survive the upcoming communist grab of existing wealth.

Problem Thailand has is its demographics and its operational cost + corruption.

It lags the west (EU) but is now entering the period it needs to harvest funds from anywhere - vast majority of Thais don’t pay tax and the foreigners are the easy touch because there’s roughly 1m here and they don’t vote.

Agreed on bearer assets

 

[Mercury]

Buying and managing your own $500k property is not necessarily a stress-free experience. Also, remember that remitting the $500k to buy it would also trigger a tax event if you don't plan accordingly... So you won't be free of planning, even if you decide to overpay.

People who want to settle down in Thailand may prefer to own the place they live in. Putting money in a well selected property is not worse than throwing cash in rents, hotels and Airbnbs. We're talking of $500K on $10M that's only 5%, I assume the extra yield on $500K will not be missing.
Need to plan only once: being non-resident for tax purposes in TH the year the investment money is remitted.

I won’t give figures but as a basic if anyone has x amount they need it working for them otherwise it’s being debased at a compounded weight / that’s the issue with Thailand's new approach as 10m pretty much isn’t enough to hire a team to manage - you can outsource but with the fees and risk profiles you only get nominal growth (optical) so you’d be forced to manage it which is then potentially bringing it onshore which brings it potentially under the Thai tax ring fence.

One can just invest in a mix of growth/dividend ETFs and crypto depending on risk appetite, all held offshore.
Proceeds remitted tax exempted in Thailand under LTR visa.

 

[JackAlabama]

They did Interpol checks for mine so I imagine for all others and possibly liaise with the domestic police force also - as well as international (home country) - yet a lot of these people still got the visas.

yeah thats kinda funny how that works

Also note the second carribean passport now runs through the FBI for similar reasons - was a article implying that a whole back


Problem Thailand has is its demographics and its operational cost + corruption.

It lags the west (EU) but is now entering the period it needs to harvest funds from anywhere - vast majority of Thais don’t pay tax and the foreigners are the easy touch because there’s roughly 1m here and they don’t vote.

thats for sure but they can easily leave too as they have no ties to the land, not even legally.

Agreed on bearer assets

People who want to settle down in Thailand may prefer to own the place they live in. Putting money in a well selected property is not worse than throwing cash in rents, hotels and Airbnbs. We're talking of $500K on $10M that's only 5%, I assume the extra yield on $500K will not be missing.
Need to plan only once: being non-resident for tax purposes in TH the year the investment money is remitted.

makes sense for some.

But for me the place does not allow for settling down as foreigner, one is only tolerated (with money). What baffles me is that I don't own it either if bought.

I think it that way. 500k @ 5% gives me about 24k rent budget (minus tax if applicable).
Flexibility is key and buying and managing a property there (or any other asian country where I have no property rights) would increase my stress level significantly.
Id change my opinion if I could aquire Thai (or any other asian) citizenship for example and would appear as a local before the land dept. Then Id buy real estate.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

Ultimately there will be a significant impact on the local economy for those that have structured planned so another idiotic idea by the Thai government failing to fulfill their ideas.

Ivent been in Thailand for that long and I've already seen this happen multiple times. It's almost as if it's impossible for them to think laterally and project hypothetical scenarios based on their actions.

Also note the second carribean passport now runs through the FBI for similar reasons - was a article implying that a whole back

Can you share please I cant find it. (I know the Grenada one is run with the US government too because of whatever visa they can get.

Problem Thailand has is its demographics and its operational cost + corruption.

Agreed.

 

[Mercury]

But for me the place does not allow for settling down as foreigner, one is only tolerated (with money). What baffles me is that I don't own it either if bought.

Foreigners can own condo as a freehold in Thailand.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

Ivent been in Thailand for that long and I've already seen this happen multiple times. It's almost as if it's impossible for them to think laterally and project hypothetical scenarios based on their actions.

Correct.
For someone who has never been to Thailand, @TheCryptoAnt sure understands the way of thinking here.

I'm learning to read Thai language.
Not very advanced yet, so to practice I read books for school children.
Even in those books, many, many, examples of, "impossible for them to think laterally and project hypothetical scenarios based on their actions."
As a result, instead of anticipating problems, the only option presented is fixing problems after they occur.

To be fair about it, this level of psycho-epistemology is not limited just to Thais.
All Oriental societies suffer from a similar problem: arabs, Indians, Chinese, etc.
(The only exceptions are perhaps Japanese and Koreans.)

The thread topic here is Thailand tax and ATM transactions.
As a result of their social behavior and methods of thinking [sic],
I expect the proposed tax policies to be a big mess, with the result the opposite of what was intended.

 

[wellington]

yeah thats kinda funny how that works

thats for sure but they can easily leave too as they have no ties to the land, not even legally.



makes sense for some.

But for me the place does not allow for settling down as foreigner, one is only tolerated (with money). What baffles me is that I don't own it either if bought.

I think it that way. 500k @ 5% gives me about 24k rent budget (minus tax if applicable).
Flexibility is key and buying and managing a property there (or any other asian country where I have no property rights) would increase my stress level significantly.
Id change my opinion if I could aquire Thai (or any other asian) citizenship for example and would appear as a local before the land dept. Then Id buy real estate.

Investor visa gave you the right to buy half a rai (mine did) free hold.

Also (grandfathered in) but have credit lines with the bank (25m SCB for property - landed/non-landed), credit card etc.

Can you share please I cant find it. (I know the Grenada one is run with the US government too because of whatever visa they can get.

Might have been Grenada.

 

[JackAlabama]

Foreigners can own condo as a freehold in Thailand.

yes sure, but 51% of the condo is still under Thai majority.

Investor visa gave you the right to buy half a rai (mine did) free hold.

Also (grandfathered in) but have credit lines with the bank (25m SCB for property - landed/non-landed), credit card etc.


Might have been Grenada.

the incidence in phuket showed it again, if for whatever reason they want you gone, so will it be (and assets will be gone too) regardless of former promises made.
I ve heard about all these structures and such, but I doubt anything will stand these tests.

 

[toums]

Bang Tao too much traffic, i go to the wine drinking Fridays, utter nightmare, from there down to Mai Khao, and then Paklok is more relaxed but within reach of life, anything South of Kamala is a no-go-zone... s**t-hole all along the west coast with a few small pockets but you've got to travel through the s**t-holes to get to them.

Phuket town amazing, was there night before last having Japanese prepared by the chef 1-1 these are the experiences that make Phuket town great, in Bangkok you rarely get that.

Thanks for sharing your experiences again. For Bang Tao i was mostly talking for the beach, for me it's my favorite in Phuket.

Sadly, I always skipped Phuket Town but I have the cliché that it was only tourists.. Then I have to go to make my own opinion

For yourself, there's an abundance of visa's or just get a tourist visa... and bounce around between bali/thailand...

Just tourist visa (visa exemption and extension?) I am afraid to be denied one day by the visa runs..

As said also @scooterguy most probably the easiest with less headache is to spew the money in the Elite.. Probably for 5 years, I don't want 'commitment' for now for 10 years.

I understood you can play with the tax residency or not every year (by spending some years 180days+ and being officially tax resident in TH in year X) and spending less than 180days year Y and you can in that case remit ANY money in a thai bank without any tax (year Y).

Nov - Jan Swiss
Jan - May Thailand
May - June Bali
June - July East Afrika
July - Aug Swiss
Aug - Nov Thailand

For those thinking of their tax concerns I can highly suggest Bali, Thailand, and East Afrika (Zanzibar, Danai Beach, Nairobi)

Look like a nice yearly plans

However how you connect this with tax concern? As far i know Bali (indonesia) doesnt have territorial tax scheme and globally not attractive, so I doubt you can use Indoenias to optimise and same in Africa (Zanzibar or Kenya : never been yet by the way, but on my list).

It's the main point of my main thread (10+ optmiziation). How you can play in the case you are less than 180 days a year (sometimes) in Thailand. Let's say you are 7-8 months in Asia a year (5 in Thailand if you wanted to remit something this year. or not) + 2-3 months around (bali and other SEA countries). Then you are 4 months in Europe. Let's say 2 months in Budapest, 1 in France and 1 traveling around.

You cannot settle any 'official' tax residency on that way ? (in a specific year if you spend less than 180days in Thailand)

That's why i was talking on the side to take the Emirates residency (emirates id) as an additional layer, but I don't know if it's really help something in that case if you don't spend the 90days minimum a year there..

I currently dont have this problem in Portugal under NHR tax scheme because it doesnt required by law the 183days, till you maintien your home there (and it's still there I spend till now the most time in a year). However by making the decision (and its what i want) to spend 7-8 months+ a year outside Europe (and i really like thailand and BKK, at least for my 'main' base) , it's look like more complicated to fit everything in a good/proper way..

 

[JackAlabama]

They are absolutely clueless in not the only one - my entire circle addressed their onshore costs.

Everything insurance related paid overseas to an overseas provider (believe it or not this is one of the biggest costs when you have a family).

Everything onshore was addressed on how it could be reduced or negotiated opposed to just paying previously - no prior haggling.

In addition even grocery shopping (central etc) we’ve found a way to reduce there onshore exposure with the same shopping without going the route some people suggested of using a overseas card (that’s for the mentor group though).

Then onshore things like schooling we’ve gone with their parent companies and placements opposed to domestic placements as most of these schools etc are owned by a overseas company and have placements for kids - now that will change in the future as the kids will either study in Swiss/singapore or HK but for the time being this year at least we’ve adopted this approach.

I’d hazard a guess we’ve reduced our onshore exposure by 60% of costs and friends by 70%+ but most don’t have kids.

We have staff (household etc) and those were normally paid by the wife after paying tax now they are paid via a service entity and have to pay their own tax.

Ultimately there will be a significant impact on the local economy for those that have structured planned so another idiotic idea by the Thai government failing to fulfill their ideas.

thats a good way.
Smart with the school, did not think about that one yet.

Looks like the impact is gonna be significant.

 

[Mercury]

You cannot settle any 'official' tax residency on that way ? (in a specific year if you spend less than 180days in Thailand)

Why do you need an official tax residency?
If you don't meet any of the 3 France tax residence requirements you have nothing to scare about.
As long as you can prove a residence address in Thailand (by lease or title deed), France will consider you as Thai resident.
The point that some years you won't be tax resident in Thailand because of not meeting the TH tax residence requirements is irrelevant.

As said also @scooterguy most probably the easiest with less headache is to spew the money in the Elite.. Probably for 5 years, I don't want 'commitment' for now for 10 years.

I don't see why applying for Elite compare to LTR is less headache unless you can't show the money.
LTR is cheaper and offers more benefits including tax exemption.

 

[wellington]

Well looking at some of the commentary (usually a lagging indicator) I am not sure just yet - what will say is they are already moving forward with the the wallet thing 10k to debase their currency in-line with the $ debasement so as to have attractive export optical prices - also it aids with the votes - so product/services will rise and they’ll be able to squeeze more taxes out of non citizens residing as their cost of living rises.

Even the marinas are not immune rising 15% already

 

[JackAlabama]

Well looking at some of the commentary (usually a lagging indicator) I am not sure just yet - what will say is they are already moving forward with the the wallet thing 10k to debase their currency in-line with the $ debasement so as to have attractive export optical prices - also it aids with the votes - so product/services will rise and they’ll be able to squeeze more taxes out of non citizens residing as their cost of living rises.

Even the marinas are not immune rising 15% already

interesting.

also noticeable from the article, it seems 50M earn less than 70k B/month and have less than 500k B in their accounts (out of 70M give or take).
Only these 50M will get the cbdc while the 20M don't (in case it wont be postponed again and times over).

So another policy in the making which will have as consequence a reduced balances held inside the banking system .

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

... moving forward with the the wallet thing 10k to debase their currency in-line with the $ debasement so as to have attractive export optical prices

Ah, that explains a lot!
Until reading that, I just couldn't figure out why the 10K give-away was really being considered.

Thank you, @wellington, for your insight.

 

[toums]

Why do you need an official tax residency?
If you don't meet any of the 3 France tax residence requirements you have nothing to scare about.
As long as you can prove a residence address in Thailand (by lease or title deed), France will consider you as Thai resident.
The point that some years you won't be tax resident in Thailand because of not meeting the TH tax residence requirements is irrelevant.

I don't see why applying for Elite compare to LTR is less headache unless you can't show the money.
LTR is cheaper and offers more benefits including tax exemption.

I am not afraid about France as I really dont spend time there (1month a year), and no tie (no business/income/ no wife-kids).

My current tax residency is Portugal (under NHR tax scheme), and i have also a base in Budapest. So if one year I spend less than 180 days in Thailand (so not thai resident according to their 180days+ rules) and I don't fill any tax form, I am more concerned if my previous tax residency (Portugal) or Hungary (as I have a base even if i spend less 90days a year there) can challenge something as I would not able to prove a tax certificate or something like from Thailand..

I never had this situation until now as I optimized 'easily' my passive income tax and crypto tax (before i was resident in malta, since covid in Portugal under NHR), so I have all papers in order, 100% clean.

I don't know if it's a big deal or can be solved in a easy way..

For LTR I saw they ask a lot of papers for this visa compare to the ELITE one (+ a 500K$ minimum investment). I can consider it to buy something, but maybe during the first year.

I can prove easily the 1M.+ asset. but they ask also 80K/year in passive income the past 2 years. Most of my passive income (dividends, interests, crypto etc..) wasn't remit into my bank accounts ; i can prove it for now, but not for the past 2 years (if it's mandatory to prove the past 24months 80K a year of passive income remitted in bank accounts). If it can be from exchanges and brokers, then i can prove it.

 

[wellington]

interesting.

also noticeable from the article, it seems 50M earn less than 70k B/month and have less than 500k B in their accounts (out of 70M give or take).
Only these 50M will get the cbdc while the 20M don't (in case it wont be postponed again and times over).

So another policy in the making which will have as consequence a reduced balances held inside the banking system .

Thai gov just following the Fed debasement…

It’s a plus because it buys votes

Why do you need an official tax residency?
If you don't meet any of the 3 France tax residence requirements you have nothing to scare about.
As long as you can prove a residence address in Thailand (by lease or title deed), France will consider you as Thai resident.
The point that some years you won't be tax resident in Thailand because of not meeting the TH tax residence requirements is irrelevant.

I don't see why applying for Elite compare to LTR is less headache unless you can't show the money.
LTR is cheaper and offers more benefits including tax exemption.

Elite was simple - scan of every page in passport - fill out a form and the agent did the rest

 

[Mercury]

I can prove easily the 1M.+ asset. but they ask also 80K/year in passive income the past 2 years.

I've read reports saying that 12 months passive income history was OK.
You should definitely ask BOI directly explaining your situation, you may find out they could be more flexible regarding their requirements. This is Thailand.