Thailand Tax -> CC/DC Withdrawals (CDM/ATM)

[wellington]

Best piece of advice I can give anyone - pay some tax - even if it’s made up tax from savings - it’s best route in Thailand as they don’t then hassle you - if you have assets they hassle you and seize your assets for tax evasion and then money laundering (their new favorite tool).

As Thais say better to pay something and be ignored than to fight the mafia

Ofcourse if you have roots (wife/kids) then use the 20m THB gift allowance annually just ensure it’s from savings not income.

Oh and they certainly do track when pushed to - CDM/ATM transactions - and they then class it as money laundering.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

Best piece of advice I can give anyone - pay some tax - even if it’s made up tax from savings - it’s best route in Thailand as they don’t then hassle you.

I am in Thailand 20 years: This is brilliant advice !
Thank you, @wellington.
You certainly understand Oriental thinking.

 

[Mercury]

Best piece of advice I can give anyone - pay some tax - even if it’s made up tax from savings - it’s best route in Thailand as they don’t then hassle you - if you have assets they hassle you and seize your assets for tax evasion and then money laundering (their new favorite tool).

Declaring tax in Thailand is a double-edged sword. As you say, they may leave you in peace as they see you pay some tax but, as you are in the system, you might end up being in the first line of the randomly audited ones. Thais always take the easiest path, if you do not appear in their tax database it's highly improbable they'll knock at your door one day.

Ofcourse if you have roots (wife/kids) then use the 20m THB gift allowance annually just ensure it’s from savings not income.

According to the new rules anything earned from 01/01/2024 onwards cannot be considered as savings anymore, but anyway there is nothing in the law that states gifts from overseas must have been taxed prior gifting.

Again, all these announcements and rules have no value if not enforced.

 

[wellington]

According to the new rules anything earned from 01/01/2024 onwards cannot be considered as savings anymore, but anyway there is nothing in the law that states gifts from overseas must have been taxed prior gifting.

Again, all these announcements and rules have no value if not enforced.

I was referring to 'if not income'.

Some people (like i do) get paid dividends every 5-10 yrs opposed to every year.

If paid every year or every month (income) then it becomes difficult, if you have a dividends for multi-year paid in x year down the line, much easier to balance ones life around tax requirements.

 

[JackAlabama]

Ofcourse if you have roots (wife/kids) then use the 20m THB gift allowance annually just ensure it’s from savings not income.

Id say thats not gonna fly regularly and annually. It leaves interpretations wide open. And a remitted average lifetime earnings in 1 year is tempting.
This looks to me like a honey trap setup.

 

[toums]

Using stablecoins is an easier way to provide evidence as they would openly show “matured”.

Hm, what do you mean ?

Best piece of advice I can give anyone - pay some tax - even if it’s made up tax from savings - it’s best route in Thailand as they don’t then hassle you - if you have assets they hassle you and seize your assets for tax evasion and then money laundering (their new favorite tool).

Oh and they certainly do track when pushed to - CDM/ATM transactions - and they then class it as money laundering.

If you really have already life saving for 'several lifes' in Thailand, what you would consider as 'correct / minimum ' to declare ? Like if you rent a flat, you declare the yearly rent amount as income ?

Or better to not own any real estate in Thailand, and just minimum amount on your local bank account.. Ofc it depends your situation but if you are single, no kids, other bases abroad and plently of oversea bank accounts, and when you see rental price in BKK vs selling price.. Yield is not that good (especially if you have to pay 100% 'cash'). So except owning a car, maybe can minimize issue if tax problems happens there..

You are saying they track CDM/ATM transactions, but not the card payments like in restaurants, bars, i mean daily expenses you pay with your oversea cards ? (not talking about deposit / withdraw)

 

[wellington]

Id say thats not gonna fly regularly and annually. It leaves interpretations wide open. And a remitted average lifetime earnings in 1 year is tempting.
This looks to me like a honey trap setup.

Flies as long as you can prove the funds were before 2024 tax year.

I for example was last paid dividends in 2019 - so all my funds are proven to not be income since 2019

Hm, what do you mean ?



If you really have already life saving for 'several lifes' in Thailand, what you would consider as 'correct / minimum ' to declare ? Like if you rent a flat, you declare the yearly rent amount as income ?

Or better to not own any real estate in Thailand, and just minimum amount on your local bank account.. Ofc it depends your situation but if you are single, no kids, other bases abroad and plently of oversea bank accounts, and when you see rental price in BKK vs selling price.. Yield is not that good (especially if you have to pay 100% 'cash'). So except owning a car, maybe can minimize issue if tax problems happens there..

You are saying they track CDM/ATM transactions, but not the card payments like in restaurants, bars, i mean daily expenses you pay with your oversea cards ? (not talking about deposit / withdraw)

100k a year should keep them happy if living a normal lifestyle - if outrageous aim towards 1m

 

[toums]

100k a year should keep them happy if living a normal lifestyle - if outrageous aim towards 1m

Mini 100K$ a year to declare to thai tax authority even if all your money / assets was already in your possession before 01/01/2024 ?

Look like not that cheap if we pass from a 'tax free' country to 5K$ a year for elite (25K 5years) and giving 30/35K$ yearly tax on your saving / assets...

Declaring tax in Thailand is a double-edged sword. As you say, they may leave you in peace as they see you pay some tax but, as you are in the system, you might end up being in the first line of the randomly audited ones. Thais always take the easiest path, if you do not appear in their tax database it's highly improbable they'll knock at your door one day.

Agree, can be double-edged sword. Being to much honest and being a much more easy target or?

 

[wellington]

Mini 100K$ a year to declare to thai tax authority even if all your money / assets was already in your possession before 01/01/2024 ?

Look like not that cheap if we pass from a 'tax free' country to 5K$ a year for elite (25K 5years) and giving 30/35K$ yearly tax on your saving / assets...



Agree, can be double-edged sword. Being to much honest and being a much more easy target or?

THB

It’s not about assets / money being there before - it’s that a audit or worse an accusation of tax evasion and money laundering is not something you want to deal with and most likely you can’t handle the process as not many can or survive it.

Oh and if American you’ll be killed / abused “inside” for sport. As the prisons are full of Jihadis which citizenship countries don’t even want so leave them to rot and they target Americans for fun.

I had extensive discussions in my case with the revenue department - I am ok as everything is transparent - but mixing accounts / funds flowing etc you open a lot of questions - in my case my CRS data will show minimal and zero international transfers inbound.

And any funds coming into my account can be verified easily as pre 2020.

FYI elite is irrelevant - I have that - it’s a long term tourist visa but the visa doesn’t exempt you from the new tax loophole rollback changes

 

[toums]

THB

It’s not about assets / money being there before - it’s that a audit or worse an accusation of tax evasion and money laundering is not something you want to deal with and most likely you can’t handle the process as not many can or survive it.

Oh and if American you’ll be killed / abused “inside” for sport. As the prisons are full of Jihadis which citizenship countries don’t even want so leave them to rot and they target Americans for fun.

I had extensive discussions in my case with the revenue department - I am ok as everything is transparent - but mixing accounts / funds flowing etc you open a lot of questions - in my case my CRS data will show minimal and zero international transfers inbound.

And any funds coming into my account can be verified easily as pre 2020.

FYI elite is irrelevant - I have that - it’s a long term tourist visa but the visa doesn’t exempt you from the new tax loophole rollback changes

haaa THB, ok it change a lot then. But if you talk about 100K THB a year.. it seem quite low in that case and even dont qualify you to any income tax ? As i see there is no income tax below 150K THB a year.

Is there any reason you seem particularity meticulous and kind of scare with Thailand gvt / tax audit? When I read this forum, or aseanow or any people I know in Thailand nobody care apparently. Do you have around you some bad experiences (i dont count the scammer russians who withdraw 2M$ in 3ATM in Phuket..)

Last, do you still recommend Elite visa for someone below 40 who want to majority of time in Thailand (but has no wife, no business, no link in thailand for now). I saw the ED VISA for the first year but in my case and my global wealth i dont want trouble later or not able to switch to another visa then (like elite or investor?). Everything seems more easy from 50+. Too bad Thailand doesnt propose the Retired visa at 35yo as Philippines..

EDIT : just realized Philippines suspended the 35yo retired visa since covid..

 

[wellington]

No - the 100k a year is just what you throw at them to keep them away…

Is there any reason you seem particularity meticulous and kind of scare with Thailand gvt / tax audit? When I read this forum, or aseanow or any people I know in Thailand nobody care apparently. Do you have around you some bad experiences (i dont count the scammer russians who withdraw 2M$ in 3ATM in Phuket..)

Had extensive dealings with them - I am not scared of them per se - I just have dealt with the revenue department / Thai gov on major investments into the country which ended up with extensive dialogue and ultimately extensive payments where they’ve changed the goal posts - I’ve done a post on here before outlining my experience

ATM will flag up - you’ll notice your card will be rejected for too many withdrawals - that’s a prompt behind the scenes to the AMOL office and they can tie the card to you.

I am not referring to too many withdrawals in a day but after a arbitrarily amount (roughly 150k these days) the system automates a SAR to AMOL.


On this:
Last, do you still recommend Elite visa for someone below 40 who want to majority of time in Thailand (but has no wife, no business, no link in thailand for now). I saw the ED VISA for the first year but in my case and my global wealth i dont want trouble later or not able to switch to another visa then (like elite or investor?). Everything seems more easy from 50+. Too bad Thailand doesnt propose the Retired visa at 35yo as Philippines..

- I did the elite and they’ve changed it so much - was meant to be tax free, no reporting, no paperwork each has been eroded or walked back or changed.

Can’t comment on the Philippines - never been

I’ve done investor visa in Thailand previously - it’s not worth the paperwork.

 

[JackAlabama]

No - the 100k a year is just what you throw at them to keep them away…


Had extensive dealings with them - I am not scared of them per se - I just have dealt with the revenue department / Thai gov on major investments into the country which ended up with extensive dialogue and ultimately extensive payments where they’ve changed the goal posts - I’ve done a post on here before outlining my experience

ATM will flag up - you’ll notice your card will be rejected for too many withdrawals - that’s a prompt behind the scenes to the AMOL office and they can tie the card to you.

I am not referring to too many withdrawals in a day but after a arbitrarily amount (roughly 150k these days) the system automates a SAR to AMOL.


On this:
Last, do you still recommend Elite visa for someone below 40 who want to majority of time in Thailand (but has no wife, no business, no link in thailand for now). I saw the ED VISA for the first year but in my case and my global wealth i dont want trouble later or not able to switch to another visa then (like elite or investor?). Everything seems more easy from 50+. Too bad Thailand doesnt propose the Retired visa at 35yo as Philippines..

- I did the elite and they’ve changed it so much - was meant to be tax free, no reporting, no paperwork each has been eroded or walked back or changed.

Can’t comment on the Philippines - never been

I’ve done investor visa in Thailand previously - it’s not worth the paperwork.

thats a common story ive heard back and forth. the gazilionaire falang will be fleeced one way or the other. They smell blood they come and bahts change hands. Ive seen this in the region starting from housing to simple business up to big factory investments.

Philippines has similar issues tho. I lived there in the past. Its ok tho. Infrastructure and food is way worse (so the good stuff cost way more than in Thailland) the country is overall more like a latam and usa influenced place. Overall more poverty. The nice parts are indeed nice and english is way more widespread. Plus the people are somehow more approachable (latam usa influenced style).
You can live on tourist visa year round, they are way more liberal regarding this. Tax no idea, its territorial for the foreigner.

Flies as long as you can prove the funds were before 2024 tax year.

sure with proofs and official gift notarized contracts for certain specific occasions (birth or 20th birthday or whatever they deem acceptable). But not on a regular basis every year just like that. There have been presentations this cannot be just gifts like I give you 10 bucks.
Thats what I was referring to.

I for example was last paid dividends in 2019 - so all my funds are proven to not be income since 2019


100k a year should keep them happy if living a normal lifestyle - if outrageous aim towards 1m

yeah agreed. In case you dont have savings from before becoming a tax resident.
So this will "llock" 1 overseas account for as long as one doesnt wanna part with 100k/y.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

haaa THB, ok it change a lot then.
Is there any reason you seem ... kind of scare with ... gvt / tax audit? When I read this forum, or aseanow or any people I know in Thailand nobody care apparently.
Last, do you still recommend Elite visa
EDIT : just realized Philippines suspended the 35yo retired visa since covid..

Written like an "armchair expat".
Hasn't traveled to the countries ... just sits in front of a computer asking about this law and that regulation.
Un-aware that laws and regulation out here are mere words on paper.

In the Oriental region of the world, laws and regulations change often.
Promises ... such at Thailand's Elite Visa ... are broken down slowly over time, so that eventually they are worthless.
But someone got your money in advance.

In this part of the world, he only thing that matters is visibility and enforcement.
And when "enforcement" begins, laws and regulations don't matter much.

How can I so quickly recognize an "armchair expat" from reading only one post??

Because I was exactly that, for about 2 years before I got on some airplanes and travelled.
Once "in country" I did everything I could meet face-to-face with long-stay expats in those places.
Expats who had "problems" didn't need any prompting from me.
Their "stories" just poured out.
(Yes, I paid for a lot of dinners and plenty of beer.)

Compared to sitting in front of a computer screen reading forums and blogs,
going in person was like the difference between night and day.
In person, I got solid answers and also observed with my own eyes.

@toums, I respectfully suggest that instead of spending time asking questions on forums, you pack a suitcase and go to the places that interest you.

PS: ASEAN NOW forum ... mentioned above ... (formerly "Thai Visa forum) is the worst source of information for Thailand expats.
To paraphrase American author Mark Twain,
"If you don't read ASEAN NOW you will be un-informed. If you do read
ASEAN NOW you will be mis-informed."

(This post is unsponsored advice from an old expat.)

 

[toums]

Written like an "armchair expat".
Hasn't traveled to the countries ... just sits in front of a computer asking about this law and that regulation.
Un-aware that laws and regulation out here are mere words on paper.

Well well.. I travelled in 50countries+
And I am travelling around 4-6 months a year without counting my 2 bases I am currently living (and it doesnt count my citizenship country..), since many years..

I was also many times in SEA (or in LATAM too), and for your info, I am actually in BKK..

If I am asking questions here it's because i suppose/think there are much more experimented people on this forum for these kind of questions / or in similar situation as me.. than the 'cheap charlie expat' you can met 95%+ of the time in SEA .. No offense.

 

[JackAlabama]

Well well.. I travelled in 50countries+
And I am travelling around 4-6 months a year without counting my 2 bases I am currently living (and it doesnt count my citizenship country..), since many years..

I was also many times in SEA (or in LATAM too), and for your info, I am actually in BKK..

If I am asking questions here it's because i suppose/think there are much more experimented people on this forum for these kind of questions / or in similar situation as me.. than the 'cheap charlie expat' you can met 95%+ of the time in SEA .. No offense.

thats indeed the case, @wellington also gave you actionable advice.

dont look down on the cheap charlie expats, some have good intel.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

Well well.. I travelled in 50countries+
And I am travelling around 4-6 months a year without counting my 2 bases I am currently living
and for your info, I am actually in BKK..

Then I apologize to @toums for my assumptions.

 

[wellington]

Basically if you don’t want the hassle of dealing with but spend a moderate amount within Thailand say 1-2m ThB a year you just say you earned x and owe 100k thb tax

They will take it and won’t look any further unless you are a person of interest from overseas authority.

If you are someone that spends more say 2-5 and have a partner (Thai) then distribute across both accounts and pay 100-250k a year in tax even if not income but can’t easily prove savings.

If northwards of that amount for one specific year then just leave for 7 months and bring in a heap and then don’t pay tax.

If annually more then you’ll have to be creative.

Put into perspective my annual Thai cc was roughly 300-400k a month as a family unit - that’s dramatically dropped as I moved nearly all charges to overseas services companies (insurances etc)

 

[scooterguy]

wellington provides good advice, but based on the very large numbers of someone with business and family in Thailand, and an expensive lifestyle.

It's hard to spend more than 30k baht a month in Thailand if you're:

1) Not in Bangkok
2) Not married
3) Have a normal non-gold digging girlfriend
4) You drive a scooter

You can always buy the expensive things outside, without the money having to go through Thailand; flights, hotel reservations, health insurance, etc., and you can 'gift' 100k or so a year to your girl, or bring some cash from abroad from time to time. In other words, it's easy to keep yourself in the 150k bracket.

Things of course change with family, schools, etc. like in wellington's case, so it depends on how much you're spending.

Declaring tax in Thailand for small amounts can be a double-edged sword, as others mentioned above.

 

[wellington]

wellington provides good advice, but based on the very large numbers of someone with business and family in Thailand, and an expensive lifestyle.

It's hard to spend more than 30k baht a month in Thailand if you're:

1) Not in Bangkok
2) Not married
3) Have a normal non-gold digging girlfriend
4) You drive a scooter

You can always buy the expensive things outside, without the money having to go through Thailand; flights, hotel reservations, health insurance, etc., and you can 'gift' 100k or so a year to your girl, or bring some cash from abroad from time to time. In other words, it's easy to keep yourself in the 150k bracket.

Things of course change with family, schools, etc. like in wellington's case, so it depends on how much you're spending.

Declaring tax in Thailand for small amounts can be a double-edged sword, as others mentioned above.

This is true - if spending about 30k a month your liabilities would be minuscule - just calculate and pay the requirements in that case.

The problem Thailand has is its low tax bands that compound.

When i had a WP and was part of a development a decade or so ago the companies always paid half on half offshore (consultancy) for this reason and they’d pay your onshore taxes - mainly because they didn’t like anyone looking at their own cooked books

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

It's hard to spend more than 30k baht a month in Thailand if you're:

Good perspective from @scooterguy.