where to store value?

[void]

After a few (mostly unsuccessful) attempts in the past I'd like to open a thread once again to discuss options for storing the value in case you make (much) more than you can spend. I know many people interested in this topic and it's becoming more important than ever thinking about the near future.
Let's discuss instruments for storing 6 (maybe higher 5) figures per case - with smaller money it's no problem and for the bigger numbers it's a completely different story.
Let's assume clean money where privacy and ownership protection is the biggest concern.

 

[negon]

Advcash with darks works great to store money! So far they have been reliable and working for a long time for most people around. They suck pretty much to work with in regards to funding the account but other than that it works outstanding.

 

[countryfree]

Well, property of course.
You just need to select very carefully the country where you will buy.

 

[void]

Well, property of course.

yes, obviously, however speaking about anonymity and AML procedures in most of the countries worth considering it's far from ideal

You just need to select very carefully the country where you will buy.

any ideas?
I'd love to buy land or house using cash in the country with reasonable ownership protection and political stability... but it seems impossible nowadays

 

[Martin Everson]

I would say for 6 figures store in physical cash and document the bank withdrawal for later depositing somewhere else.

btw if cash is in euros then wait until end of May for the new 100 and 200 euro notes to come out .

 

[void]

I would say for 6 figures store in physical cash and document the bank withdrawal for later depositing somewhere else.

yes, this is conservative solution
however buying for cash is difficult, traveling with big cash amount (except EU) is difficult and I kind of worry about how cash will be accepted in future (even for the later deposit you mentioned supported by documentation)

btw if cash is in euros then wait until end of May for the new 100 and 200 euro notes to come out

I have never seen 500 EUR note, have seen 200 EUR note twice in my life and 100 EUR notes started looking very strange because (you know) it's used for money laundering as I was educated by a Frenchman two weeks ago...

100k EUR in 50 EUR notes is quite a tower

 

[countryfree]

yes, obviously, however speaking about anonymity and AML procedures in most of the countries worth considering it's far from ideal

any ideas?
I'd love to buy land or house using cash in the country with reasonable ownership protection and political stability... but it seems impossible nowadays

Paying cash? I'm sorry but I don't know any place where you could buy a house with cash. There are opportunities, but it has to be a bank wire, and it won't be anonymous.

 

[Martin Everson]

I have never seen 500 EUR note, have seen 200 EUR note twice in my life and 100 EUR notes started looking very strange because (you know) it's used for money laundering as I was educated by a Frenchman two weeks ago...

100k EUR in 50 EUR notes is quite a tower

100k in 500 euro notes is only a 2cm stack weighing 0.22kg
100k in 50 euro notes is only a 20cm stack weighing 1.84kg.

Big notes are used in Europe for storing value. A lot of Germans, Austrians keep these notes at home. In Switzerland 1000 chf notes are also common for buying cars etc. Never had a bank in Switzerland bat an eyelid when giving them out or taking them in - maybe changed now .

p.s 100k in 1000 chf notes is only a 1cm stack weighing 0.11kg. Folds nicely and slides into trouser pocket .

 

[void]

100k in 50 euro notes is only a 20cm stack weighing 1.84kg.

my point was that it's not very convenient for cabin luggage and I wouldn't be too happy to go e.g. from London to New York with this

for example Germany is very open (compared to the rest of Europe) to dealing with cash but I can assure you that buying a 50k car with stack of 500 notes would look really weird

I doubt we will be able to load our bank account with 500 notes in 5 years - not mentioning that I don't know where to get them even today ;-), you can rarely ask ATM machine to give you 100 notes (Spain no chance, France no chance, Austria no chance, Germany if you know where to go)

 

[Martin Everson]

I doubt we will be able to load our bank account with 500 notes in 5 years - not mentioning that I don't know where to get them even today ;-)

500 euro note is no longer printed however they retain their value indefinitely. An EU national bank will always accept old 500 euro notes and wire you the money when you want to exchange it. Just make sure you document the cash and source of funds. If you have to ask where to get them then not a solution for you .

ECB ends production and issuance of €500 banknote

"The €500 banknote, like the other denominations of euro banknotes, will always retain its value and can be exchanged at the national central banks of the Eurosystem for an unlimited period of time."

Cash storage is what people are doing believe it or not

 

[countryfree]

Cash? I would not be confident storing a lot of cash at my home. Especially considering that I'm traveling so much, and that the amount of cash you can freely cross border with is limited. You must rent a safety box at a Swiss bank.

 

[Martin Everson]

Especially considering that I'm traveling so much, and that the amount of cash you can freely cross border with is limited.

I think you are you getting confused with how much cash you can carry into a country before you have to declare it at customs? Generally you can carry as much cash as you want across country borders but different countries have a threshold over which you must declare it. Not an issue if everything is legit just declare it.

Anyway cash is not for everyone. However whatever one decides to do if you want privacy and protection of your assets then you want to remove third-party liability/involvement which rules out holding it in any financial instrument, in any bank, as a registered asset i.e land, property, classic car etc. Ultimately you are going to have to trade convenience for inconvenience to obtain privacy and protection.

 

[countryfree]

Yes, to declare it, that's precisely the issue. If I want privacy, and I do, I don't like to declare anything, especially when I'm crossing borders often. I always carry cash, but not that much to require any declaration.

Besides, nobody has said anything about it yet, but I think it's a good idea to have a few bitcoins. It's far from the perfect solution, but it has potential.

 

[Martin Everson]

Besides, nobody has said anything about it yet, but I think it's a good idea to have a few bitcoins.

In regards to the original OP before we get off topic, bitcoin is no solution. The fluctuation in its value makes it a very very poor choice for storing value as mentioned in OP's first line.

P.s I wish someone would do a Warren Buffet type challenge and invest $1,000 in the S&P 500 and the other party invest $1,000 in bitcoin. Then come back in 10 years and see which was the better store of value .

 

[countryfree]

P.s I wish someone would do a Warren Buffet type challenge and invest $1,000 in the S&P 500 and the other party invest $1,000 in bitcoin. Then come back in 10 years and see which was the better store of value .

Well, if you consider the past 10 years, bitcoin's the winner by far...
But it's true that it's a very risky investment, yet somehow, I believe in it. As it's getting so difficult to hide money nowadays, or to make nearly anonymous transfers, bitcoin has a bright future. I own some, and it would be incredibly difficult to prove that I do, and asset protection is unparalleled.

 

[Spinat]

I agree with @countryfree bitcoin and crypto generally speaking is the way to store your money. Let's hope there soon will be a stable crypto. to store the money.

 

[Martin Everson]

Well, if you consider the past 10 years, bitcoin's the winner by far...
But it's true that it's a very risky investment, yet somehow, I believe in it. As it's getting so difficult to hide money nowadays, or to make nearly anonymous transfers, bitcoin has a bright future. I own some, and it would be incredibly difficult to prove that I do, and asset protection is unparalleled.

I wouldn't judge bitcoin performance on the back of a bubble. Also sadly I believe in governments ability to crush any competing financial form of transactions they do not like. I would still love bitcoin but unfortunately your backing a technology that no one knows who invented and is purely speculative. A technology whose price discovery is largely opaque and shrouded in dodgy exchanges manipulating the price. Take it from someone that sold at 13,000.

p.s I know there is no reasoning with bitcoin fans just like Tesla fans or Peter Schiff fans. The cult like belief in it clouds real world judgement or the reality of its position in the financial world. It's not a silver bullet for maintaining value. In another 10 years from now I don't know how many more forks there will be - wouldn't want to find out either.

 

[countryfree]

I'm not adverse to reasoning, but I guess it would take too long... I note a big difference though between you and me. I don't believe in governments. I've been working for bitcoin, and I've paid people to work for me with bitcoin. No government can stop that. Everywhere I look, I see failures of governments. And it's getting worse and worse.

 

[void]

I'm not adverse to reasoning, but I guess it would take too long... I note a big difference though between you and me. I don't believe in governments. I've been working for bitcoin, and I've paid people to work for me with bitcoin. No government can stop that. Everywhere I look, I see failures of governments. And it's getting worse and worse.

well, everyone who is open enough to change his opinions formed mostly by state through its school system must (after little bit of studying) inevitably come to a conclusion that the only sustainable society in the long-term is "democracy" where "voting" is done by money (of any kind) of individuals on a free unregulated market
every other state organization is just temporarily kept by violence and restricting freedom of people
what we for example call "democracy" in western world is a ridiculous system that leads to socialism and conflict we will unfortunately see pretty soon - we just can't tell anyone what to do and what not to do - the "good" is simply incomparable speaking about any two persons
but I agree it's not a topic for five minutes...

 

[Martin Everson]

Deep subject to get into. I am against democracy for the record.