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Trader deciding between Spain and Portugal
- Thread starter MrTambourineBTC
- Start date
Yeah there are options with or without KYC for now, but the general trend is prohibition of those and that exchanges will operate under Spanish licences, and therefore remove derivatives/futures/leverage/margin tokens. I'm having a more future centered vision here (for short term could easily remain one more year in Spain under the radar), so trying to think for the long term and it can't be Spain for this reason...
I am trading right now at Kucoin (sucks and high fees) and MEXC (like it more and very low fees), both non-KYC, but the trend has been of more regulation (crazy the amounts of cash I withdrew from Southern Spain ATMs in 2019 withouth KYC and now all them require it). The trend is very clear. You can see how many exchanges could operate with no KYC in 2020 and how many today. This trend will continue that's why I want to get out of the "under the radar" zone already this year...
I would never not have a crypto under a "B" wallet, mainly for protective reasons against the states and their lack of freedom/potential fascism, but I think you mostly gotta operate on the bright side. If only, for peace of mind...
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Man just trade the CME contracts at IBKR, most exchanges are trash anyway.
You even get to trade options on said contracts
You even get to trade options on said contracts
Getting NHR is easy for pensionists of course, they are one of the main targets of the program and very easy to prove.
Where did you get that 1125€ max per year? You meant 11250€ perhaps?
You should look into the self employed simplified tax regime, might be just what you need without the NHR hassle: Effective tax rate when self-employed in Portugal
Yes I have investigated more and Portugal
holy s**t it was up to 1125€ PER MONTH! I saw 1125€ and assumed it was per year lol what a scam
14.9% up to 13k per year??? lmao for that price id rather have private insurance...
About that post, I'd already looked at it but the tax in Portugal clearly states that a trader of crypto and anyone that based his income on capital gains pays taxes on 0.95 of what he makes. A provider of a serviceis totally different story and yes might be 0.35 and that's where his numbers come... For a trader were talking in the 40%+ neighbourhood...
At this point the only real possbility for me to go live in Portugal is the combo NHR + offshore (cyprus, malta) corporate. I'v researched a lot and anything else is impossible. And even that possibility is somewhat sketchy because they can accuse you of effectively managing your corporate from Portugal (and they'd be right)
see, here it is, other services 35%, but positive balance of capital gains at 95%, you are taxed on almost everything you make (makes sense cause as a trader you barely have any expenses)
https://www.fresh-portugal.com/blog/guide-to-nhr-tax-benefits-for-expats
holy s**t it was up to 1125€ PER MONTH! I saw 1125€ and assumed it was per year lol what a scam
14.9% up to 13k per year??? lmao for that price id rather have private insurance...
About that post, I'd already looked at it but the tax in Portugal clearly states that a trader of crypto and anyone that based his income on capital gains pays taxes on 0.95 of what he makes. A provider of a serviceis totally different story and yes might be 0.35 and that's where his numbers come... For a trader were talking in the 40%+ neighbourhood...
At this point the only real possbility for me to go live in Portugal is the combo NHR + offshore (cyprus, malta) corporate. I'v researched a lot and anything else is impossible. And even that possibility is somewhat sketchy because they can accuse you of effectively managing your corporate from Portugal (and they'd be right)
see, here it is, other services 35%, but positive balance of capital gains at 95%, you are taxed on almost everything you make (makes sense cause as a trader you barely have any expenses)
You can just pay the 28% and be done with it. The NHR + corporate setup seems too risky, complicated and might even backfire and become a big mess. Not worth it imho. You wanted to come out of the shadows and stop hiding right? If you take that route you'll be hiding again, kinda, this time in Portugal. Maybe not hiding but afraid of being caught, same same...
An NHR, who invests ( capitalize ) in a Cyprus/Malta company ( preferably set up before he moves to Portugal) which has local appointed directors and secretary, banking in the country of incorporation, signatory powers to a director or other local person, a small office and potentially a part time employee to carry out adminiatrative and accounting work should not attract a challenge from Portuguese authorities who have set up an inviting scheme to attract foreign income earners and pensioners to support their economy. Such a challenge would have been totally out of scope. Would be highly interested to hear of any such case in which portuguese authorities have tried to challenge even the simplest of such set ups.
That may be the situation right now (I don't know, I'm not a lawyer and not from Portugal), but it could change in the future. Can you guarantee it won't be challenged in the next 10 years?
The challenge wouldn't be out of scope that's for sure, I would argue that they want to attract legitimate setups not made up ones that take advantage of the program.
Problem with that, besides paying 28%, is that you could be considered professional/business, if you make like 100k in a year, and be taxed as a professional at income tax rates and be fucked severely. I think Spain gotta be one of the very few countries in the world where you get taxed as capital gains (21-23%) even if you make it professionally. Given what I'm seeing, I'm sadly considering staying here and face whatever might happen. I'm not at a offense level so you can only get accused of something within the last 5 years. For a 100k€ year profit 22% might even be the cheapest, given I don't have to pay social security here. Cause we haven't taken into account social security, but even under NHR as self employed if you make 100k€ you're paying 20% NHR + 13.5% for social security (lol)
How much approximately would cost for incorporating the company and also for maintaining it if not too much to ask? That setup sounds legit and hard to challenge...
Let me send you a PM to ask some more info on the work involved from your side and I can give you something definitive and solid for your consideration.Problem with that, besides paying 28%, is that you could be considered professional/business, if you make like 100k in a year, and be taxed as a professional at income tax rates and be fucked severely. I think Spain gotta be one of the very few countries in the world where you get taxed as capital gains (21-23%) even if you make it professionally. Given what I'm seeing, I'm sadly considering staying here and face whatever might happen. I'm not at a offense level so you can only get accused of something within the last 5 years. For a 100k€ year profit 22% might even be the cheapest, given I don't have to pay social security here. Cause we haven't taken into account social security, but even under NHR as self employed if you make 100k€ you're paying 20% NHR + 13.5% for social security (lol)
How much approximately would cost for incorporating the company and also for maintaining it if not too much to ask? That setup sounds legit and hard to challenge...
Same in Spain. Just capital gains tax at 21-23 up to 200k
Although in Spain crypto to crypto is taxed.
This difference is quite big.
In Austria you can grow your crypto capital over the years (reinvesting in a bear market your stablecoin earned in a previous bull market) and pay tax only on the crypto you convert to euro: if you don't need to cash out in a tax year then tax is zero for that year.
In Spain you might end up with a big tax bill if you trade frequently and with high volumes.
yes
no idea sorry
Good thing about Spain is that inverse perps are not taxed, as they are denominated in the same coin.
So theres no 'trade'
There is no crypto to crypto trade but there is definitely a capital gain? Still taxed at 21%+ sadly
Tax is calculated at 31st december no matter how frequently or how much volume you trade! You pay the same for one trade or 100 trades. 19-26% (mostly 21-23%).
I just gave a look at a crypto tax guide in Spain and it works like in other countries: for the taxman a crypto-to-crypto becomes crypto-to-EUR (calculate tax on this if profit with market value at that day) and then EUR-to-crypto.
https://koinly.io/guides/crypto-tax-spain/
There is no crypto to crypto trade but there is definitely a capital gain? Still taxed at 21%+ sadly
I consulted this with Hacienda back in '20 and they confirmed theres no tax to be paid.
Has it changed since then?
I mean you gotta have to pay taxes on your profits.... if you can be more specific about it I could search into it but I'm 99% sure there's gotta be taxes to be paid, never heard of anything even remotely close to that here in Spain!
idk I was with this two dudes in a Hacienda office in BCN. Explained the situation and they said theres no taxes no be paid on inverse perps trading, only when you sell the collateral.
Dunno if it has changed since then, tbh I never filled for taxes while I was there cause the amount was too large to give to any government.
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