Thailand 0% tax

[Mercury]

Just for clarity sake.

What's actually reported under CRS these days?

From Wikipedia:
- Name, address, Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) and date and place of birth of each Reportable Person
- Account number
- Name and identifying number of the reporting financial institution
- Account balance or value as of the end of the relevant calendar year (or other appropriate reporting period) or at its closure, if the account was closed
- Distributions made to the account (dividends, interest, gross proceeds/redemptions, other)

You can dig into the CRS XML Schema doc below for detailed information:

https://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-o...r-guide-for-tax-administrations-june-2019.pdf

 

[theblast3r]

From Wikipedia:
- Name, address, Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) and date and place of birth of each Reportable Person
- Account number
- Name and identifying number of the reporting financial institution
- Account balance or value as of the end of the relevant calendar year (or other appropriate reporting period) or at its closure, if the account was closed
- Distributions made to the account (dividends, interest, gross proceeds/redemptions, other)

You can dig into the CRS XML Schema doc below for detailed information:

https://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-o...r-guide-for-tax-administrations-june-2019.pdf

"OECD has published the second edition of the CRS Implementation Handbook, which, although not part of the CRS, provides a practical guide to implementing the CRS to both government officials and financial institutions and includes a comparison between the CRS and FATCA."
https://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-o...e-of-financial-information-in-tax-matters.pdf

 

[wellington]

"OECD has published the second edition of the CRS Implementation Handbook, which, although not part of the CRS, provides a practical guide to implementing the CRS to both government officials and financial institutions and includes a comparison between the CRS and FATCA."
https://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-o...e-of-financial-information-in-tax-matters.pdf

Thanks for this, interesting thing that stuck out immediately :

Chapter 4: Due diligence procedures ................................................................................... 72The split between Preexisting Accounts and New Accounts ................................. 73Chapter 4.1: Due Diligence for Preexisting Individual Accounts ......................... 74Chapter 4.2: Due Diligence for New Individual Accounts........................................ 81Chapter 4.3: Due Diligence for Preexisting Entity Accounts.................................. 84Chapter 4.4: Due Diligence for New Entity Accounts ................................................ 90Chapter 4.5: Other definitions and general due diligence rules........................... 96

- This is like the de-banking in the UK, i guess they can pass that information along to foreign counterparts to de-bank people in the future (political/social)

Wonder how they determine it's gross income or gross dividends.
I've never been asked to confirm such with a bank.

Select the proper code to identify the payment type. Specific payment types listed are:• CRS501 = Dividends• CRS502 = Interest• CRS503 = Gross Proceeds/Redemptions• CRS504 = Other – CRS. (Example: other income generated with respect to the assetsheld in the account)Element Attribute Size

- Distributions made to the account (dividends, interest, gross proceeds/redemptions, other)

How's that determined?

---

Seeing CRS data shared it doesn't appear to be anything really bad.

Though I remember back in my youth the ability to move inter-bank to game the system to increase the credit card limit lol

Circulating pounds round and round.

If they do gross that's going to be interesting for people that have a lot of circulation.

I circulate funds for example in a few accounts in Asia, basically to keep the accounts active but don't actually use the banks for savings/or day-to-day, just recognise banking is getting harder.

 

[backpacker]

Select the proper code to identify the payment type. Specific payment types listed are:• CRS501 = Dividends• CRS502 = Interest• CRS503 = Gross Proceeds/Redemptions• CRS504 = Other – CRS. (Example: other income generated with respect to the assetsheld in the account)Element Attribute Size

This has never been any different.
The second edition is just a slight clarification of the first edition.

If they do gross that's going to be interesting for people that have a lot of circulation.

No "If".
Gross (turnover) is reported.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Not all financial institutions ask for tax residency, in fact I only know one, and that was in Eastern Europe many years ago.

I am still surprised about this. According to ->
johur bahru (malaysia visa)? you bank in SG. Singaporean banks always determine your tax residency.
All others should do, too. However, as you already mentioned, in countries that "voluntarily" joined CRS they rarely get it right. Probably there are no checks in place and nobody really cares.

 

[khinkali]

they were probably the last bank that verified my residency

It's common in some countries, not others. Even non residents need to provide a tax receipt and government issued photo id from residence country (!) to open a crypto exchange account in Thailand. Most people I know who have lived in Georgia for years have neither of those things, but they would seem quite normal to expect from a Thai perspective. I remember someone saying on OCT that they had to demonstrate tax residence for a broker account.

I suspect that receipts or proof of tax residence from a territorial tax country will become more useful to people in the coming years.

Wonder how they determine it's gross income or gross dividends.
I've never been asked to confirm such with a bank.

FATF is going to make this possible in many cases. Travel Rule (US), 5AMLD and 6AMLD (EU), AUSTRAC (AU), and Travel Rule equivalents from FINMA (CH), MAS (SG), FSA (JP).

It is likely that this passing of information with every transaction will eventually allow some kind of blanket surveillance across OECD and those who get bullied into joining. Similarly with VASP regulations. I wonder how difficult it will be to interact outside the OECD's "Great Wall" of financial surveillance.

 

[backpacker]

Most people I know who have lived in Georgia for years have neither of those things,

Georgian banks (TBC, BoG, Liberty ...) and Georgian brokerage companies (i.e. TBC Capital, Galt & Taggart) do not seem to have any clue about CRS at all.
The non resident foreigners I know have never been asked to demonstrate proof of tax residency. Until today these Georgia financial institutions do not even verify the legal address of non-resident foreigners.
All this is quite a mystery, considering that the country is now officially participating in CRS

 

[JackAlabama]

Georgian banks and Georgian brokerage companies (i.e. TBC Capital, Galt & Taggart) do not seem to have any clue about CRS at all.
The non resident foreigners I k ow have never been asked to demonstrate proof of tax residency. Until today these Georgia financial institution s do not even verify the legal address of non-resident foreigners.
All this quite a mystery, considering that the country is now officially participating in CRS

The matter of fact is most countries just do not care what these oecd surveillance freaks do.

 

[khinkali]

The non resident foreigners I k ow have never been asked to demonstrate proof of tax residency. Until today these Georgia financial institution s do not even verify the legal address of non-resident foreigners.

Georgian banks are updating some systems currently, but proof of tax residency is not generally a requirement.

I don't think that UK banks routinely require natural persons to provide proof of tax residences either, they just assume ongoing actual residence which is not a good proxy for tax residences.

The matter of fact is most countries just do not care what these oecd surveillance freaks do.

To an extent. Mostly they collect some information to show they made an effort.

I expect a strong tightening, so the interesting part will be what happens at the interface between OECD compliant jurisdictions and others. They are not The World Government, but they will probably be more of a pain for ordinary folk.

 

[wellington]

This has never been any different.
The second edition is just a slight clarification of the first edition.

No "If".
Gross (turnover) is reported.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I am still surprised about this. According to ->
johur bahru (malaysia visa)? you bank in SG. Singaporean banks always determine your tax residency.
All others should do, too. However, as you already mentioned, in countries that "voluntarily" joined CRS they rarely get it right. Probably there are no checks in place and nobody really cares.

I don't live in Johur Bahru, So unsure what that has to do with anything, unless you are taking 1 + 2 = 2, i.e my statement about being in discussions ref moving a enterprise i am the larger shareholder to Labuan, and myself using Malaysia as part of living outside the 180 day requirements? If so that discussion started last week, and hasn't progressed to the point where I've commenced it which i've clearly stated (i am pursuing answers).

All others should do, too. However, as you already mentioned, in countries that "voluntarily" joined CRS they rarely get it right. Probably there are no checks in place and nobody really cares.

Ref Singapore I hold a SGD account, Singapore.

CRS was never established when the account was opened they probably do CRS based on the information on the system (account address) and never bothered to inform me, which i pointed out above, never been asked in Asia.

Having said that the SGD account has like 5k in it and hasn't been touched in years.

It's common in some countries, not others. Even non residents need to provide a tax receipt and government issued photo id from residence country (!) to open a crypto exchange account in Thailand. Most people I know who have lived in Georgia for years have neither of those things, but they would seem quite normal to expect from a Thai perspective. I remember someone saying on OCT that they had to demonstrate tax residence for a broker account.

I suspect that receipts or proof of tax residence from a territorial tax country will become more useful to people in the coming years.

Unsure, don't have active accounts in Crypto exchanges in Thailand so never asked.

Not sure of the relevancy to the discussion, as for Thailand from my understand they automate reporting against your passport to the revenue department -> who do the CRS.

FATF is going to make this possible in many cases. Travel Rule (US), 5AMLD and 6AMLD (EU), AUSTRAC (AU), and Travel Rule equivalents from FINMA (CH), MAS (SG), FSA (JP).

It is likely that this passing of information with every transaction will eventually allow some kind of blanket surveillance across OECD and those who get bullied into joining. Similarly with VASP regulations. I wonder how difficult it will be to interact outside the OECD's "Great Wall" of financial surveillance.

I suppose this is where dropping a Western citizenship and acquiring a citizenship by investment would be worthwhile, sure the information will be shared but ultimately the surveillance apparatus won't care as you are not one of their citizens thus one of their problems to restrict for carbon etc

Georgian banks are updating some systems currently, but proof of tax residency is not generally a requirement.

Looks like a charming country.

I don't think that UK banks routinely require natural persons to provide proof of tax residences either, they just assume ongoing actual residence which is not a good proxy for tax residences.

UK Banks didn't up until this year, then they de-banked any non-residents... 1m of them so far... 3m to go.

I expect a strong tightening, so the interesting part will be what happens at the interface between OECD compliant jurisdictions and others. They are not The World Government, but they will probably be more of a pain for ordinary folk.

Surveillance is one thing, but a one world Government just wont happen, there would be riots... There's already a mass awakening of hate towards the US, EU, etc in the West... at a certain point that will boil into something, as we all know most of this is pushed by the US, which is the biggest laundering, tax evasion location in the world.

I know they are trying, and arguably Europe is a one-system Government *EU* but these countries are literally full of people that think its normal to hand over their finger prints as kids.... The argument i have with European friends is 'nothing to hide', to which i respond with only products hand over barcodes, or only criminals or slaves have their prints taken.

I suspect that receipts or proof of tax residence from a territorial tax country will become more useful to people in the coming years.

As I understand, Cambodia still doesn't do CRS, and it banks predominantly internationally through Thai banking rails.

I also understand people just head there and open accounts.

Not sure how long that will last.

I actually have no qualms with CRS, i do however find it idiotic this information is shared / accessible by states.

The reason ofcourse, i see this as a potential national security risk.
In addition this information could have a gun put to your head (in Asia this is routine).

 

[khinkali]

UK Banks didn't up until this year, then they de-banked any non-residents... 1m of them so far... 3m to go.

Yes. A point was made about not requiring evidence of tax residences. UK banks are debanking people they know to be non residents, but they're not routinely asking for proof of tax residences.

Will banks in OECD favourable countries start to look at long term use of ATMs and debit card transactions? Maybe, in which case most many expats will drop their old accounts.

Surveillance is one thing, but a one world Government just wont happen,

Indeed and without World Government the surveillance will have boundaries. What we see now in China, could be applied to EU+US+CA+UK+AU+NZ+CH+JP+etc. due to the regulations I mentioned above (each financial institution collecting and passing information to the next). But not globally, so the interactions with non-compliant jurisdictions will become interesting.

This was the point I (seemingly badly) tried to make. Thailand and other countries with "travel rule" type regulations will get knowledge of what income was from dividends etc., because the surveillance is strengthening. But, only if you have a connection that prompts AEOI to the jurisdiction.

 

[wellington]

Yes. A point was made about not requiring evidence of tax residences. UK banks are debanking people they know to be non residents, but they're not routinely asking for proof of tax residences.

Will banks in OECD favourable countries start to look at long term use of ATMs and debit card transactions? Maybe, in which case most many expats will drop their old accounts.



Indeed and without World Government the surveillance will have boundaries. What we see now in China, could be applied to EU+US+CA+UK+AU+NZ+CH+JP+etc. due to the regulations I mentioned above (each financial institution collecting and passing information to the next). But not globally, so the interactions with non-compliant jurisdictions will become interesting.

This was the point I (seemingly badly) tried to make. Thailand and other countries with "travel rule" type regulations will get knowledge of what income was from dividends etc., because the surveillance is strengthening. But, only if you have a connection that prompts

I am not advocating for tax evasion (for one i am not spending income as i have none).

But surely trusts would become the norm (blind trusts or something) for those that want to pass along the nest egg.

That would/should safeguard the funds for the offspring (just has to be managed i guess due to constant debasement).

 

[khinkali]

But surely trusts would become the norm (blind trusts or something) for those that want to pass along the nest egg.

If the inheritors have Thai domicile then that sounds like a prudent avenue (though 5% on inheritance over $2.7 million per recipient is better than most places).

Overall the policy is a weird approach as the behavioural effect will be to reduce remittances to Thailand and keep capital abroad.

 

[jafo]

i see this as a potential national security risk.

100% this! It is a security risk! Many well-to-do people (but living a quiet simple life) in Latin America have already been targeted due to CRS. They are usually farmers/people who export and others who do business overseas.

(1) and this is NOT something new: Body of Argentina's Kidnapped Ex‐President Found (Published 1970)

(2)

(3) and is ongoing: https://insightcrime.org/news/brief/argentina-police-possibly-involved-in-upsurge-of-kidnapping/

What we see now in China

I'm very curious...as I do business in China, and due to self-preservation motives and not wanting to be caught with my pants down... Would you expand on this issue about China?

 

[khinkali]

I'm very curious...as I do business in China, and due to self-preservation motives and not wanting to be caught with my pants down... Would you expand on this issue about China?

I just mean that while the West is increasing surveillance with VASP, travel rule and similar things, China has "Real-Name Registration", social credit scoring system, etc. I read that CAMLMAC has been told to "establish and manage the national AML database".

Back to the topic of Thailand, I think that a lot of countries will be looking at how they can satisfy Western and Chinese demands to some degree.

 

[jafo]

I just mean that while the West is increasing surveillance with VASP, travel rule and similar things, China has "Real-Name Registration", social credit scoring system, etc. I read that CAMLMAC has been told to "establish and manage the national AML database".

Thank you for sharing!

 

[JackAlabama]

I don't live in Johur Bahru, So unsure what that has to do with anything, unless you are taking 1 + 2 = 2, i.e my statement about being in discussions ref moving a enterprise i am the larger shareholder to Labuan, and myself using Malaysia as part of living outside the 180 day requirements? If so that discussion started last week, and hasn't progressed to the point where I've commenced it which i've clearly stated (i am pursuing answers).


Ref Singapore I hold a SGD account, Singapore.

CRS was never established when the account was opened they probably do CRS based on the information on the system (account address) and never bothered to inform me, which i pointed out above, never been asked in Asia.

Having said that the SGD account has like 5k in it and hasn't been touched in years.

It might be dormant as of now.

Unsure, don't have active accounts in Crypto exchanges in Thailand so never asked.

Not sure of the relevancy to the discussion, as for Thailand from my understand they automate reporting against your passport to the revenue department -> who do the CRS.


I suppose this is where dropping a Western citizenship and acquiring a citizenship by investment would be worthwhile, sure the information will be shared but ultimately the surveillance apparatus won't care as you are not one of their citizens thus one of their problems to restrict for carbon etc


Looks like a charming country.


UK Banks didn't up until this year, then they de-banked any non-residents... 1m of them so far... 3m to go.


Surveillance is one thing, but a one world Government just wont happen, there would be riots... There's already a mass awakening of hate towards the US, EU, etc in the West... at a certain point that will boil into something, as we all know most of this is pushed by the US, which is the biggest laundering, tax evasion location in the world.

I know they are trying, and arguably Europe is a one-system Government *EU* but these countries are literally full of people that think its normal to hand over their finger prints as kids.... The argument i have with European friends is 'nothing to hide', to which i respond with only products hand over barcodes, or only criminals or slaves have their prints taken.


As I understand, Cambodia still doesn't do CRS, and it banks predominantly internationally through Thai banking rails.

I also understand people just head there and open accounts.

Not sure how long that will last.

I actually have no qualms with CRS, i do however find it idiotic this information is shared / accessible by states.

The reason ofcourse, i see this as a potential national security risk.
In addition this information could have a gun put to your head (in Asia this is routine).

Yah if you live in such places, best to avoid crs being sent there. It adds nothing but risk to your personal life.

I just mean that while the West is increasing surveillance with VASP, travel rule and similar things, China has "Real-Name Registration", social credit scoring system, etc. I read that CAMLMAC has been told to "establish and manage the national AML database".

Back to the topic of Thailand, I think that a lot of countries will be looking at how they can satisfy Western and Chinese demands to some degree.

They only have to go forward as long as these currencies remain strong. Which does not look like for that long.

 

[backpacker]

Yah if you live in such places, best to avoid crs being sent there. It adds nothing but risk to your personal life.

100% this! It is a security risk! Many well-to-do people (but living a quiet simple life) in Latin America have already been targeted due to CRS. They are usually farmers/people who export and others who do business overseas.

Finally we are talking the same language: Security risk! CRS is the biggest security risk in a developing nation for the people @jafo mentioned.

 

[elboligrafo]

Finally we are talking the same language: Security risk! CRS is the biggest security risk in a developing nation for the people @jafo mentioned.

Can you please elaborate on how exactly CRS information can potentially be exploited and put an account holder in harm's way?

 

[wellington]

Can you please elaborate on how exactly CRS information can potentially be exploited and put an account holder in harm's way?

In essence Governments around the World, are able to peer into a persons financials very easily, as its centralised and open to all tax agencies.

With this ability, a hostile nation could seek financial information on a subject of interest, which would enable them to ply the correct pressure points or resolve the pressure points (bribe etc).

Based on the valuable information they can glean from CRS.

Arguably, it could be stated if say Iran enquired about x Subject the UK for example could have flags raised (eh, why is Iran looking into this physics scientist) etc, but it's automated as I understand (mostly) and 'reasons' can be created (dummy accounts created that give them reason to have a need), likewise it can be utilised for false banking to put a subject not conducive to a state actor under a spotlight -i.e the head of this NGO has been sniffing around via his NGO, false bank account records entered, creating domestic flags for the NGO/CEO etc.

Basically CRS can be weaponised like wise it can be used for alternative informational attack vectors.

For national security reasons CRS therefore should be cancelled... when outside of the Western alliance (which pretty much are vassal states to the US, which does not do CRS predominantly from its domestic side for the very reason(s) i've highlighted above most likely).

---

Lastly CRS is built for a world of productivity, the West is in decline, tax receipts will continue to decline and wealth of its subjects likewise, the rise of robotics is occurring and within 20-50 yrs predominantly robotics/AI will contribute for most of the productivity of the World, therefore this system is obsolete or rather its long-term use is defunct.

Humanity is on the cusp of robotics, thus is own existence is in question _ 50-150yrs out.

 

[JackAlabama]

Can you please elaborate on how exactly CRS information can potentially be exploited and put an account holder in harm's way?

Well in some places "data leaks" can happen and you get a few nice visits if your offshore balance is high enough or otherwise interesting.
From there many options possible.