Seeking Refuge from Legal Challenges Abroad

[JackAlabama]

Thank you for your response; he is not Swiss but Swedish. And it is a criminal case - so I assume Switzerland will not protect him in any way. But are there other countries or places that would?

I mean folks talking interpol and such here for what seems to be a simple personal dispute no one really cares about. (unless of course, the guy in question is the next cz binance or so or its a murder case or tax thing or so).

id say anywhere outside eu (which has an auto legal enforcement system between them even for petty matters which this one seems to be), no one will care really about a simple personal dispute and accusation.

 

[JohnLocke]

I heard that Israel also should be a good option if you are well connected. Since I don't have the need for such exercise I don't know but I spoke with someone about it years ago.

 

[daniels27]

I mean folks talking interpol and such here for what seems to be a simple personal dispute no one really cares about. (unless of course, the guy in question is the next cz binance or so).

id say anywhere outside eu (which has an auto legal enforcement system between them even for petty matters which this one seems to be), no one will care really about a simple personal dispute and accusation.

Yes, what is it actually about? In many places in Europe it is very unlikely to get a sentence that is not on probation.

 

[JackAlabama]

Yes, what is it actually about? In many places in Europe it is very unlikely to get a sentence that is not on probation.

good question and point, the info what its actually about is paramount to the issue.

"if proven guilty" which is a big if either (again assuming the case of a simple personal dispute no judge nor anyone with the exception of hired lawyers (which get paid handsomely along the way).

I was involved in the restaurant business (nothing fancy, a simple small shop no chain) in the past and there was once a break in with window broken and the safe destroyed (the daily cash income was gone, a few g's). Police doing the protocol didn't even care to take fingerprints from glass window or do some forensics the day after lol. Never got anything out of the police report. This is how unspectacular (small and boring) cases get treated.

Africa esp in the bush is also a good option. No one will care to come to look for you, esp not for petty matters.

 

[Martin Everson]

I mean folks talking interpol and such here for what seems to be a simple personal dispute no one really cares about. (unless of course, the guy in question is the next cz binance or so or its a murder case or tax thing or so).

And it is a criminal case - so I assume Switzerland will not protect him in any way. But are there other countries or places that would?

@JackAlabama We have to take his word as to the issue being a criminal case versus civil case. In which case a Red Notice by Interpol can be issued and then each country can decide themselves what they want to do.

https://interpolint.org/wanted-persons/
P.S Interpol has many wanted people in its database. The stuff most people hear about is the big stories not the small guys that are wanted for less media glamorous offenses like this guy or this guy.

 

[wellington]

Brazil, Thailand, Russia they all host tons of EUSSR criminals searched by warrants. Just check the news on Google.

What we do not know is whether they don't cooperate with Poland now. I posted the link to the page of Polish agreements, maybe check their.

As mentioned before, there is little information in English if this subject and I had to use Google in Polish to get results. I therefore highly recommend getting a lawyer in Poland with background on this matter. Maybe the one from my link above.

Thailand will hand him to the wolves lol

 

[daniels27]

@JackAlabama We have to take his word as to the issue being a criminal case versus civil case. In which case a Red Notice by Interpol can be issued and then each country can decide themselves what they want to do.

https://interpolint.org/wanted-persons/
P.S Interpol has many wanted people in its database. The stuff most people hear about is the big stories not the small guys that are wanted for less media glamorous offenses like this guy or this guy.

I cannot even get the search to work here
https://interpolint.org/wanted-persons/
And why CABO VERDE and their followers are double members?
https://interpolint.org/member-countries/

 

[Martin Everson]

I cannot even get the search to work here
https://interpolint.org/wanted-persons/
And why CABO VERDE and their followers are double members?
https://interpolint.org/member-countries/

Sorry try this site below. The other site looks like some clone site or something.


https://www.interpol.int/en/How-we-work/Notices/Red-Notices/View-Red-Notices

 

[JackAlabama]

@JackAlabama We have to take his word as to the issue being a criminal case versus civil case. In which case a Red Notice by Interpol can be issued and then each country can decide themselves what they want to do.

https://interpolint.org/wanted-persons/
P.S Interpol has many wanted people in its database. The stuff most people hear about is the big stories not the small guys that are wanted for less media glamorous offenses like this guy or this guy.

these two cases are nationals of some hole wanted by their own country. Given the places involved, it can easily be due to having p** off one of the ruling clans with his investment fraud (maledive case) and the CAR one can be due to whatever (pedophilia).
It looks like the case is a personal dispute between two guys, which cannot compare to the cases here.

So I still stand my point from before: Many criminal cases just get thrown to the trash bin (what I wrote above).
I know paranoia runs wild these days as the world is completely upside down, but theres still adequate measurement.

But again, op must provide more info about what the criminal accusations are and how proofs look like etc.
After all I can accuse my neighbor of having raped my dog, daughter and mom as well or whatever I can think of.

But im open to be corrected of course and amend my view of every crime getting auto reported and prosecuted by interpol.

 

[daniels27]

I personally would not do anything. Most likely, the other guy just abuses the criminal case for his civil claim as with 99% of all criminal cases. We all have been there.

Even @JohnnyDoe has been raided 4 times and nothing happened:
https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/patent-for-secure-erasing-of-data.42666/page-2#post-274935

 

[lory]

He is not charged with any of the things you've listed here; it's just that my friend and the other person were business partners, and now the other party believes he has been cheated out of 1 million euros.

 

[JackAlabama]

He is not charged with any of the things you've listed here; it's just that my friend and the other person were business partners, and now the other party believes he has been cheated out of 1 million euros.

ah thats the usual thing, which I already hinted in a former post. Just a dispute of 2 guys (which goes with a lot of barking). The dude should have made it to 5-10M not just 1. But anyhow.

Id take that easy and would not relocate. Its a case every judge or state employee would wanna throw into the rubbish bin, because its so mundane and boring and no career move can be made out of it (unless the company is like paypal or a politically highly incorrect venture where shutting it down gives career points or so).

It goes to say, if however the 1M is coming from tax doged or so, the case will be prosecuted.

 

[Martin Everson]

He is not charged with any of the things you've listed here; it's just that my friend and the other person were business partners, and now the other party believes he has been cheated out of 1 million euros.

So its a civil case and not a criminal case as you stated? There is a huge difference between the two. A civil case is normally an issue between two parties the other is a offence against the state itself. He has nothing to worry about then wherever he goes then.

 

[lory]

What happens if he loses and has to pay 1 million and then doesn't want to or can't pay it? Then it's a bit naive to be sitting in a country where they'll come after his money or belongings.

 

[daniels27]

So its a civil case and not a criminal case as you stated? There is a huge difference between the two. A civil case is normally an issue between two parties the other is a offence against the state itself. He has nothing to worry about then wherever he goes then.

No, it is a criminal case. It is normal under those circumstances, that you first open a criminal case with the civil case attached to it. After 5 rounds with the prosecutor, the case will be closed and the Polish guy has the option to continue the civil case. But he probably won't to this as it is costly and you need to do all work yourself. A criminal case is very easy to get somebody to pay in order to have it closed.

What happens if he loses and has to pay 1 million and then doesn't want to or can't pay it? Then it's a bit naive to be sitting in a country where they'll come after his money or belongings.

Nothing happens. I already wrote this earlier. He would have to appoint a lawyer in Switzerland to start the Betreibung locally. And then, he would just file bankruptcy and the case is over.

Only criminal fines can be converted into prison time, and this time normally is not a lot. We are talking about one week. I would still go sit it out. But again, this will never happen.

Is it his company or is it himself personally? Even if it is him personally, he can just move the money to a safety deposit box or to a foreign bank. How will they ever find it?

 

[JohnLocke]

I'm actually impressed by how much you know about legal systems, laws, and criminal cases in taxation and finance. Deep respect for your very professional knowledge, but I wonder where you all learn all this from

 

[Martin Everson]

No, it is a criminal case. It is normal under those circumstances, that you first open a criminal case with the civil case attached to it. After 5 rounds with the prosecutor, the case will be closed and the Polish guy has the option to continue the civil case. But he probably won't to this as it is costly and you need to do all work yourself. A criminal case is very easy to get somebody to pay in order to have it closed.

If its a criminal case then what is the crime he is accused of committing by the government out of interest? Maybe a legal expert can step in here.

What happens if he loses and has to pay 1 million and then doesn't want to or can't pay it? Then it's a bit naive to be sitting in a country where they'll come after his money or belongings.

If he can't pay then they can look at garnishing his income, seizing assets etc. This happens everyday to people who can't pay money they owe. In worst case if he does not have the money then he cannot pay it and its that simple. More rounds of legal fighting will have to take place to come to some sort of outcome if they want the money. But number rule of suing anyone is make sure they have the money you are after. No point suing i.e a homeless man.

 

[JackAlabama]

What happens if he loses and has to pay 1 million and then doesn't want to or can't pay it? Then it's a bit naive to be sitting in a country where they'll come after his money or belongings.

well yes, very possible they can get his money in Switzerland due to the lugano convention with a final judgement from poland. But there are ways to mitigate the severeness of the outcome in case hes really due for 1M.
However I do not know if Poland is exempt from the Lugano convention due to having questionable institutions, but the lugano convention is def something to look into if Switzerland as residence place is involved.

If its a criminal case then what is the crime he is accused of committing by the government out of interest? Maybe a legal expert can step in here.

Id assume the dude went to police and said his business partner stole his money or embezzled it or smth along that line.
Or spent too much on hookers and blow (they might have been doing that together but suddenly the other party doesnt remember it (bc gf caught him with lipstick).

Pretty much the usual things which happen when a relation goes south or one party wanna get back at the other for whatever reason.

If he can't pay then they can look at garnishing his income, seizing assets etc. This happens everyday to people who can't pay money they owe. In worst case if he does not have the money then he cannot pay it and its that simple. More rounds of legal fighting will have to take place to come to some sort of outcome if they want the money. But number rule of suing anyone is make sure they have the money you are after. No point suing i.e a homeless man.

 

[daniels27]

If its a criminal case then what is the crime he is accused of committing by the government out of interest? Maybe a legal expert can step in here.

You just go to the police or the send a letter to the prosecutor and claim he committed "fraud." What I wonder here is more what is actually the case and why the Swedish already paid a lot to lawyers. Because normally such cases are closed fairly quickly after about 3 rounds with the prosecutor. Hence, it would be interesting to know if there are any substantiated criminal claims.

If he can't pay then they can look at garnishing his income, seizing assets etc. This happens everyday to people who can't pay money they owe. In worst case if he does not have the money then he cannot pay it and its that simple. More rounds of legal fighting will have to take place to come to some sort of outcome if they want the money. But number rule of suing anyone is make sure they have the money you are after. No point suing i.e a homeless man.

Yes, he can only get, what there is. It is costly and will delay all. And in the mean time, he can then still shift the money and move elsewhere. If there are only civil claims, he is quite free to move and the possibilities of collection are limited outside the Europe. Imaging him trying to collect in Peru and by the time anything happens, he is already in Paraguay while the money sits in a safety deposit box or a customs bonded warehouse in Geneva? The experience shows that nothing happens in the court in the first case. Maybe 50k if he is lucky while the lawyers cost 80k on both sides.

Who owes the money to the Polish guy? The Swedish guy or a Swiss company or somebody else?

 

[Martin Everson]

You just go to the police or the send a letter to the prosecutor and claim he committed "fraud." What I wonder here is more what is actually the case and why the Swedish already paid a lot to lawyers. Because normally such cases are closed fairly quickly after about 3 rounds with the prosecutor. Hence, it would be interesting to know if there are any substantiated criminal claims.

Id assume the dude went to police and said his business partner stole his money or embezzled it or smth along that line.
Or spent too much on hookers and blow.

If he did go to police and claim fraud or theft then yes it is very bad for him. Then its no longer a breach of rights or agreement but potentially real criminal actions that took place. Only OP will know the full extent of the case.

In any case his lawyer will be able to inform him if its just a case of you will owe 1 million and there will be a lien against you if you lose. That's best outcome rather than some sort of fraud case etc reported to police that your in court for alongside the agreement breach .