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Russia-Ukraine War discussion
- Thread starter aniglo22
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these are nothing more than excuses regarding the mobilization of 18 year olds for the west who was not able to provide enough weapon. the real reason for a possible defeat is the lack of heavy weapons, air defense, shells, not delivered on time and in the required quality f16.
this is where Ukraine will lose to russia on the battlefield. there are no shortcomings in the meat grinder, both sides mobilized a large number of infantry and if there is a lack of parity, then the numbers are very close.
Another 100-200k of infantry at any side don't help anyone, as a since the one who has the advantage in the air and heavy weapons and has the ability to destroy defensive structures has the advancement on the battlefield. russia now has this ability, Ukraine does not
100-200k infantry would definitely change the tide on the hot sectors on the front . It would be enough manpower (even more than enough ) to stabilize and repel the current assault on Pokrovsk, Velyka Novosilka, Chasiv Yar etc...
F16 won't change much , as they are already using the same missiles with their Nasams ad . Shells and Artillery is definitely an Issue , on that point I agree with you .
But the biggest issue currently is definitely manpower . And the numbers are definitely not close in recruitment between both sides .
You wouldn't have the TZK guys kidnapping people from the streets if there were no manpower issue for Ukraine.
etc..
Stopping shelling from aircraft and heavy equipment with infantry is a possible way, but very stupid option. In this way, 100-200k infantry will be quickly destroyed.
Modern realities of effective warfare - aviation and heavy equipment must be stopped by aviation or air defense and by heavy equipment, not by infantry.
How do you imagine 100k infantry should fight SU34s dropping guided bombs? The Holy Spirit? Nonsense.
Not truth.
Version of F16 received by Ukraine it's a older models who could use older avionics, radars and missiles.
It's a Block16 - 25 models, which are 30 years old models.
That's why they are technically can't compete with russian one.
Latest versions of F16 who are competitors of modern russian aircrafts like a F16 Block 70/72 was not received by the Ukraine.
The only effective usage of F16 with current circumstances it to shoot to cruise missiles or shaheds that fly in the territory of Ukraine.
For air battle these F16 are still too weak, something like a Su27 or Mig29 that is already in army of Ukraine.
Maybe you could provide proofs? What amount of troops have Ukraine in whole army and in front line?
What amount of troops have russia that it use in war?
As far as I aware the numbers are somewhere close. Nothing significant different, especially if you consider that during standard assault campaing attacking army should be few times bigger comparing to the defensive.
Well, for people who are watch war on TV only it could be something strange.
Hovewer every man or women consider their live like a high value and war it's a big chance to be injured or killed.
Have you don't see videos how russians fly away from country when putin declared mobilization?
Every time in any place it would be people who are not want to fight by a number of reason.
Whole countries capitulated by the fear of war in history, why you wonder that specific person could be in position that he dont want to go to fight?
the specific brutality of the military registration and enlistment office in Ukraine does not say anything specific about the ratio of the number of soldiers on the front lines.
these are just specific laws that cover the rudeness of some people, in front of others who do not want to fight
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Even the F16 Viper carries the same AMRAAM missiles as the Nasams ( they won't get the d version ) . It would be in range of Russian ad before it would could engage any su's dropping fabs.
UMPK glide bombs range about 70km depending on the size of the bomb . This is figure is probably outdated as the range is longer due an upgrade in the glide kit . https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russian-engineers-upgrade-umpk-kits-boosting-bomb-range/
AIM-120C which most likely Ukraine will get has a range of 105–120 km .
The F16 viper would definitely be in range for any s-300 family ad .
It would be also in range of any Fighter jet equipped with R-77 missiles .
So F16 wouldn't change much .
It would be a nice addition as they don't need to refit their Sukhoi's and Migs for Nato missile systems .
But they wouldn't change much as Storm shadows etc.. will be now fired from f16s .
It will ease the logistics but it's definitely not close to an "GameChanger".
And also the 3:1 ratio doesn't apply for manpower it's regarding firepower .
You clearly have a misconception of infantry . Infantry aren't standing in field waiting for fabs to be dropped on them , they utilize cover(Soviet apartment buildings etc..) and move in small groups .
https://archive.ph/XBCMk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...bilisation-officer-explained-kyiv-war-russia/
You can read more reports about the current Ukrainian manpower shortage but they will have the same content . Low staffed units etc..
Russian recruitment:
https://janiskluge.substack.com/p/r...ack.com/p/russian-recruitment-slows-estimated
Of course does the method of recruiting demonstrate a manpower crisis . In the beginning you had an abundance of volunteers , but nowadays there are none . The TZK wasn't out kidnapping people in the first 1-2 years . It only changed since the last Year .
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1. Viper it's a just a nickname of F16.
Please, be mo specific and what exact model of F16 you mentioned?
Because between Block1 and for example Block 70 that I mentioned above difference is 40+ years of development and it's a completely differnt aircraft in terms of battle power.
2. If you easlity considered range for missiles for 100+km like a 'any' s-300 family, i would like you to specify exact models of it, because it's a not truth too.
R-77 missiles are not unique not overpower comparing to the AIM-120C. It's a somewhere comparable missiles that could be used in air battle with comparable aircrafts. However, with similar maximal range, better avionics would play a decisive role.
In any way I don't know what to comment here, you mix a lot of different things that are not very related to each other in terms of possible air battle and especially it not related to specific models of F16 that Ukraine received.
For a now we have a fact - guided bombs that russia use it's a something that Ukraine has no answer to and this gives a lot of advantages(not a manpower).
Been there, seen it
Thats why you should google for some video what will be with soviet apartment building after FAB500/1000/2000/3000 hit it.
Buildings effectivelly destroying with people inside it.
And as more people inside it - more loses you will have
It's again nothing comparing to reality.
You could easily google videos of how villages and cities looks like prior russians start to assault them with infantry.
They literally destroy them to the ground so UA infantry don't have effective place to organize a defence.
That's a why after constant shelling of numbef of Donbas villages they are finally could be captured by russians.
russians simply destroy everying to the ground after monthes of assault so it technically nothing to defend there and Ukraine army finally retreat from them.
it's a absolute misconcept to words of lack of man power.
Thats why you should read carefully even this article, that clearly wrote that army have lack of hard weapon.
And when you linking to words of specific people who are tired at war, then it's nothing surprising, yes war is hard. it's objectively difficult. a person complains that he's tired of war? yeah come on, these are ordinary people who lived an ordinary life, not robots. of course they're tired of war no matter how it goes.
you could look at similar russian content with say same things and words.
and what it should show us?
they have bigger budget (it's a obvious).
They have bigger amount of people in the country (it's a obvious).
They could recruit people more easy than Ukraine because of reasons above. It's a obvious too.
where is raw comparsion of amount of war power in front line at side on Ukraine and at side of russia?
Or it just demonstrate specific laws.
Not truth. Volunteers finished in first couple of months.
The TCR began to operate outside the bounds of morality and ethics in the first year of the war. In the summer of 2022 to be precise.
And more, similar videos could be found even for 2014 and 2015 years when people was forced mobilized.
Again - it's a not a shortage of people, it's a laws that allow this behavior of police and TCR people.
Viper is not a nickname of a f-16 .1. Viper it's a just a nickname of F16.
Please, be mo specific and what exact model of F16 you mentioned?
Because between Block1 and for example Block 70 that I mentioned above difference is 40+ years of development and it's a completely differnt aircraft in terms of battle power.
2. If you easlity considered range for missiles for 100+km like a 'any' s-300 family, i would like you to specify exact models of it, because it's a not truth too.
R-77 missiles are not unique not overpower comparing to the AIM-120C. It's a somewhere comparable missiles that could be used in air battle with comparable aircrafts. However, with similar maximal range, better avionics would play a decisive role.
In any way I don't know what to comment here, you mix a lot of different things that are not very related to each other in terms of possible air battle and especially it not related to specific models of F16 that Ukraine received.
For a now we have a fact - guided bombs that russia use it's a something that Ukraine has no answer to and this gives a lot of advantages(not a manpower).
Been there, seen it
Thats why you should google for some video what will be with soviet apartment building after FAB500/1000/2000/3000 hit it.
Buildings effectivelly destroying with people inside it.
And as more people inside it - more loses you will have
It's again nothing comparing to reality.
You could easily google videos of how villages and cities looks like prior russians start to assault them with infantry.
They literally destroy them to the ground so UA infantry don't have effective place to organize a defence.
That's a why after constant shelling of numbef of Donbas villages they are finally could be captured by russians.
russians simply destroy everying to the ground after monthes of assault so it technically nothing to defend there and Ukraine army finally retreat from them.
it's a absolute misconcept to words of lack of man power.
Thats why you should read carefully even this article, that clearly wrote that army have lack of hard weapon.
And when you linking to words of specific people who are tired at war, then it's nothing surprising, yes war is hard. it's objectively difficult. a person complains that he's tired of war? yeah come on, these are ordinary people who lived an ordinary life, not robots. of course they're tired of war no matter how it goes.
you could look at similar russian content with say same things and words.
and what it should show us?
they have bigger budget (it's a obvious).
They have bigger amount of people in the country (it's a obvious).
They could recruit people more easy than Ukraine because of reasons above. It's a obvious too.
where is raw comparsion of amount of war power in front line at side on Ukraine and at side of russia?
Or it just demonstrate specific laws.
Not truth. Volunteers finished in first couple of months.
The TCR began to operate outside the bounds of morality and ethics in the first year of the war. In the summer of 2022 to be precise.
And more, similar videos could be found even for 2014 and 2015 years when people was forced mobilized.
Again - it's a not a shortage of people, it's a laws that allow this behavior of police and TCR people.
Viper refers to the F16-V configuration which is the newest . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_variants#F-16V
I'm talking about the most deployed russian s-300 systems which are the S-300PM-1/-2 .
Villages aren't the main fortification's in the donbas..
It's are cities like Pokrovsk etc , they feature industrial zones which are excellent to turn them into fortified bastions , because how the soviets built them .
These industrial or even soviet apartment buildings can take tens of fabs ..
The reason why I commented about the r-77 missile is that the viper would be even very vulnerable to fighters .
F16 wouldn't change much , they can't engage the su-34's dropping the fabs ..
I made an new thread https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/russia-ukraine-war-discussion.46756/ .
Posts can be moved there .
= MODERATOR'S NOTE: Done. =
Let's just keep it civil , because we are adults .
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Okay, so we could talk about them when/if Ukraine will receive them. Until that time nothing to compare.
Oh this fairytales.
Sorry, have you been in post Soviet country at least? Have you been in industrial zone of any factory?
Fortifited bastions for modern war and even big factory it's a big difference.
Factories are very massive, but they do not protect
Only few industrial zones, for example Azovstal so big that is somehow protected itself that could give defence againts heavy weapon.
Industrial zone in Pokrovsk it's a literally bunch on hangars the walls of which are being shot through by a large-caliber machine gun, not even fabs.
here is typical example of such bomb in industrial zone:
very safe? not as my taste.
or typical panel building starts to collapse even after first hit, because it was made even not from bricks.
such 'soviet' building could simply collapse like a house of cards
it's called not vulnerable, it's called comparable
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I
Apartment buildings can take a lot of fabs to take down .
You have a lot of apartment buildings in the south of Pokrovsk which can be used .
Let's take for example Avdiivka/Avdeevka where probably hundreds/ low thousands of fabs were dropped .
You see most apartment buildings still standing and almost all soviet buildings(apartment buildings ) had basements .
It's just the ones which I could find quickly .
Apartment buildings can take a lot of fabs to take down .
You have a lot of apartment buildings in the south of Pokrovsk which can be used .
Let's take for example Avdiivka/Avdeevka where probably hundreds/ low thousands of fabs were dropped .
You see most apartment buildings still standing and almost all soviet buildings(apartment buildings ) had basements .
You can always resume this thread https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/what-is-going-on-in-ukraine.36563/
= MODERATOR'S NOTE =
Yes, it is possible; yet as the referenced thread is de facto dormant since 2022 and we see discussion here going, perhaps it's better to continue here. Threads can be merged in the future, if necessary.
= MODERATOR'S NOTE =
Yes, it is possible; yet as the referenced thread is de facto dormant since 2022 and we see discussion here going, perhaps it's better to continue here. Threads can be merged in the future, if necessary.
Last edited by a moderator:
Highly recommend watching Putin, Russia and the West - Season 1 was surprisingly unbiased to Russia and really well done to understand things until Georgia War and Obama.
Season 2 was extremely biased and didn’t do as good job as Season 1.
Season 2 was extremely biased and didn’t do as good job as Season 1.
Did you realize that people who sit in these houses after such hits have nearly to 0 chance come out unharmed?
concussion is the best that can happen, injury or killing by shrapnel from the building itself or killing by the blast wave - that's what will happen. slightly more chances to survive being in the basement, but actively defending yourself from the basement will not work
I truly believe you just troll here if you think that ordinary people should be okay after such hits.
Or plays too much computer games/see cinema.
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