Relocate to Switzerland, how to?

[JohnnyDoe]

thank you @marioIT very useful. I know they speak most likely only Italian, but I came far the last time I were in Lugano with both German and English, I don't see that as a problem.

It definitely is. You will not feel well living in Lugano without speaking Italian.
The situation would improve if you move up in the valley, say Biasca and farther.

That's also why I'm confused about Zug or Lugano, the latter has all I want beside taxes, Zug has the tax rate I want.

Why don’t you consider Italy, which offers a forfait fiscale much more advantageous than Switzerland and has a lower cost of life?

 

[Sols]

Why don’t you consider Italy, which offers a forfait fiscale much more advantageous than Switzerland and has a lower cost of life?

It's OK to not post in threads if you don't have anything to contribute to the question being asked. Or maybe you know something about furniture storage and short term rentals in Switzerland that you haven't shared with us yet?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

It's OK to not post in threads if you don't have anything to contribute to the question being asked. Or maybe you know something about furniture storage and short term rentals in Switzerland that you haven't shared with us yet?

The thread is about relocation to Switzerland, and I feel I can contribute as a Swiss citizen.
OP wrote “I want to figure out if Switzerland is for me.” I can confidently say it is not, from the point of view of a Swiss citizen.

If the focus instead is furniture storage and short term rentals, then I have nothing to say, as I am not a mover nor a cheap real estate agent, and there are more appropriate forums where to discuss these matters.

Sorry I am not here to please readers or sell stuff but to tell my unfiltered opinions in my spare time. Feel free to censor me

 

[EliasIT]

OP wrote “I want to figure out if Switzerland is for me.” I can confidently say it is not, from the point of view of a Swiss citizen.

decision is taken, if it makes sense for me to relocate to Switzerland, why are you continuing to argue about?

As I wrote I can keep 90K euro every year extra in my pockets doing so, what's wrong with that?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

decision is taken, if it makes sense for me to relocate to Switzerland, why are you continuing to argue about?

As I wrote I can keep 90K euro every year extra in my pockets doing so, what's wrong with that?

So don’t write “I want to figure out if Switzerland is for me” if you already decided. Good luck with your relocation, and enjoy the 90k Eur.

 

[backpacker]

I can get an employment contract

That's perfect.

the company has a paid in share capital of 500,000 EURO so I believe it should be sufficient to convince the migration authorities in one of these cantons.

It may sound strange but this is not enough. As you mentioned, the company is not yet registered and even if it would be they will look into how long it is running, if it pays taxes etc.
A simple employment contract as a cashier with Migros or Coop is -for this specific purpose- more valuable than your company.
So, get the employment contract! It also saves you thousands of questions you -most likely- do not want to answer.

That's also why I'm confused about Zug or Lugano, the latter has all I want beside taxes, Zug has the tax rate I want.

You want to business: Take Zug!
Lugano is just 88 minutes away by InterCity, hence you can go there whenever you want.

Lugano is for retirees and tourists, perhaps for Italian businessmen. For all others it is complicated and expensive compared to Zug.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Let me add:
Do not underestimate Swiss wealth taxation, your AHV obligations (very costly) and the various fees for all & everything. It can and will add up to a significant amount and most likely will exceed your wildest dreams.
The most expensive country I ever lived in was the country where I was born. I left because of an unwillingness to pay for literally nothing. That is the country we are discussing here.
From that point-of-view I agree with the hints of @JohnnyDoe and @marioIT , the latter mentioning the amount from when considering CH, which were well-meant warnings.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

The most expensive country I ever lived in was the country where I was born. I left because of an unwillingness to pay for literally nothing. That is the country we are discussing here.
From that point-of-view I agree with the hints of @JohnnyDoe and @marioIT , the latter mentioning the amount from when considering CH, which were well-meant warnings.

so true!
Switzerland only makes sense with the forfait fiscale, but it’s being phased out and other (nicer) countries offer better conditions anyway.
If you are a mega-rich though you really don’t care about taxes.

 

[Marzio]

Lugano is just 88 minutes away by InterCity, hence you can go there whenever you want.

Would it be believable for him to live in Lugano and commute once in a while to Zug to justify his employement contract?

 

[FixieHartmann]

That's perfect.

It may sound strange but this is not enough. As you mentioned, the company is not yet registered and even if it would be they will look into how long it is running, if it pays taxes etc.
A simple employment contract as a cashier with Migros or Coop is -for this specific purpose- more valuable than your company.
So, get the employment contract! It also saves you thousands of questions you -most likely- do not want to answer.

You want to business: Take Zug!
Lugano is just 88 minutes away by InterCity, hence you can go there whenever you want.

Lugano is for retirees and tourists, perhaps for Italian businessmen. For all others it is complicated and expensive compared to Zug.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Let me add:
Do not underestimate Swiss wealth taxation, your AHV obligations (very costly) and the various fees for all & everything. It can and will add up to a significant amount and most likely will exceed your wildest dreams.
The most expensive country I ever lived in was the country where I was born. I left because of an unwillingness to pay for literally nothing. That is the country we are discussing here.
From that point-of-view I agree with the hints of @JohnnyDoe and @marioIT , the latter mentioning the amount from when considering CH, which were well-meant warnings.

Just out of curiosity - I have a friend who got a job offer as a teacher in Zurich and will earn ~CHF90k. He decided to accept that offer and is currently moving. What kind of lifestyle do you have with basically no savings and 90k in Zurich? Are you constantly feeling "s**t, everything is crazy expensive" or do you get by well?

 

[backpacker]

Just out of curiosity - I have a friend who got a job offer as a teacher in Zurich and will earn ~CHF90k. He decided to accept that offer and is currently moving. What kind of lifestyle do you have with basically no savings and 90k in Zurich? Are you constantly feeling "s**t, everything is crazy expensive" or do you get by well?

This is a great salary, by all means. He can live very well on it, no need for plundering a savings account. Let him look for a flat somewhere between Oerlikon and Winterthur so it is easy to commute without having a car.

 

[FixieHartmann]

This is a great salary, by all means. He can live very well on it, no need for plundering a savings account. Let him look for a flat somewhere between Oerlikon and Winterthur so it is easy to commute without having a car.

So if 90k (or 70k after taxes) allows one to live "very well" in the most expensive city in Switzerland, why do @JohnnyDoe, @marioIT and also you imply that you need a lot more to be comfortable? I mean, less than 100k income and no assets is definitely not "rich" by any means?

 

[backpacker]

Would it be believable for him to live in Lugano and commute once in a while to Zug to justify his employement contract?

Definitely not.
Even though travel time is short it is still far by Swiss standards. Moreover, he has to deal with cantonal authorities (Auslaenderkontrollle) and on that level there is not much sympathy for a foreigner who commutes by criss-crossing the country.
That is until he receives Livret C (autorisation d'établissement) which will be earliest after 5 years of continued residency.

So if 90k (or 70k after taxes) allows one to live "very well" in the most expensive city in Switzerland, why do @JohnnyDoe, @marioIT and also you imply that you need a lot more to be comfortable? I mean, less than 100k income and no assets is definitely not "rich" by any means?

Fair question. Let's bring into perspective:

1. First of all, a teacher who earns 90k would be a bad teacher if he pays 20k in taxes. So, there is room.
Second, this teacher does not expect to live in Zug or Lugano in a prime location. He will be fine with standard housing in Winterthur or Oerlikon - not fancy at all.
Third, he will not want to hang out with people at Ellermann's Hummerbar, the Kaufleuten or Café Odeon. A standard Beiz will do, like it is o.k. for most locals.
Fourth, he will rely on 2. class train travel instead of a fancy car.
We can continue this endless. It all depends on the lifestyle.

2. On the other side (of the lifestyle) there is someone with paid in capital of 500k in a not yet registered company with a director, who wants to do business in a country he is about to explore. He starts with prime locations like Zug and Lugano. It can not be expected that this person has the same lifestyle than the teacher since he will -most likely- cater to an upmarket clientele and therefore he himself has completely different expenses than the teacher.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As long as you know your way, have a down-to-earth lifestyle (small flat in working class district, no car, buy stuff at Migros and Denner, no fancy restaurants, daily commute by tram and bus, no taxi at all, no cinema, no theatre or Concert hall) life in Switzerland is affordable. However, in this forum nobody wants this specific down-to-earth lifestyle.
That's what @JohnnyDoe and me tried to explain -> Switzerland is prohibitively expensive when you want to live a life other than working class people do.

 

[Sols]

Just out of curiosity - I have a friend who got a job offer as a teacher in Zurich and will earn ~CHF90k. He decided to accept that offer and is currently moving. What kind of lifestyle do you have with basically no savings and 90k in Zurich? Are you constantly feeling "s**t, everything is crazy expensive" or do you get by well?

Your friend will live a comfortable life with 90,000 CHF/year and, depending on their spending habits, be able to make some savings. The biggest cost saving would be living outside of Zurich and simply do a 15-30 minute commute into the city each day. The trains famously run like clockwork.

But if you compare it to making the equivalent in EUR (around 92,000 EUR/year right now) in nearby Germany, France, Italy, or Austria, you might be tempted to think you could get much more for your money in those countries. However, a job paying 90,000 CHF in Switzerland wouldn't pay 92,000 EUR in any of the neighboring countries. A large number of people cross the border on a daily basis, though, earning a Swiss salary while living (and paying taxes) in for example France or Germany.

So if 90k (or 70k after taxes) allows one to live "very well" in the most expensive city in Switzerland, why do @JohnnyDoe, @marioIT and also you imply that you need a lot more to be comfortable? I mean, less than 100k income and no assets is definitely not "rich" by any means?

Different definitions of comfortable, I suppose. I imagine they expect a life of luxury, which 90,000 CHF/year will not get you in Switzerland. But you can afford a nice place to live, pay for utilities and groceries without worry, and have money over for other spending and savings.

 

[fanban]

following this thread with great interest. Lot's and lots of good information, hints and comments.

WAOW I love Offshorecorptalk!

 

[JackAlabama]

did I say they were not?`you take the entire thread into a s**t thread with your nonsense. You argue about totally irrelevant s**t here.

Stick to the topic, you waste my time and the people who are reading this thread. There is valuable information here already.


very true. I know that.


well, I can get an employment contract, the company has a paid in share capital of 500,000 EURO so I believe it should be sufficient to convince the migration authorities in one of these cantons.

As I read it, my country among others in the same category have no issues what so ever to get a permission to stay there for at least 5 years.

That depends on your passport. If youre EU, no problem and moving is eassy peasy. You could even just join a University etc.
In case your passport is more exotic, they might ask for more money, add a 0 to the paid in capital and it should be ok.
Your agent should be able to advise on this matter.

Your friend will live a comfortable life with 90,000 CHF/year and, depending on their spending habits, be able to make some savings. The biggest cost saving would be living outside of Zurich and simply do a 15-30 minute commute into the city each day. The trains famously run like clockwork.

But if you compare it to making the equivalent in EUR (around 92,000 EUR/year right now) in nearby Germany, France, Italy, or Austria, you might be tempted to think you could get much more for your money in those countries. However, a job paying 90,000 CHF in Switzerland wouldn't pay 92,000 EUR in any of the neighboring countries. A large number of people cross the border on a daily basis, though, earning a Swiss salary while living (and paying taxes) in for example France or Germany.


Different definitions of comfortable, I suppose. I imagine they expect a life of luxury, which 90,000 CHF/year will not get you in Switzerland. But you can afford a nice place to live, pay for utilities and groceries without worry, and have money over for other spending and savings.

1 hour away, below that prices are similar. Better to live close to Germany to be able to buy cheap stuff.

Just out of curiosity - I have a friend who got a job offer as a teacher in Zurich and will earn ~CHF90k. He decided to accept that offer and is currently moving. What kind of lifestyle do you have with basically no savings and 90k in Zurich? Are you constantly feeling "s**t, everything is crazy expensive" or do you get by well?

90k in Zurich will not be enough.
These high salaries are high on paper only and lure in the unsuspecting victim.

This s like 7.5k per month
First, you get mandatory deductions of 10%, then like 400 per month health insurance. Then again you pay at minimum 2k rent for a bad apartment.
About 800 of it has to be saved for taxes a month.
So we are down to like 3k a month out of which you have to pay high priced groceries and if you want a fine pack of seasonal berries you pay 6 and a chicken goes fo 16.

Lets say you are still young and go on a party you will spend at least 200/300 a night out in a discotheque.
A good dinner is a least 100, better to plan 200 if you want a glass of whine.

120k would be minimum to be worth to move, better 150k

 

[EliasIT]

That depends on your passport. If youre EU, no problem and moving is eassy peasy. You could even just join a University etc.
In case your passport is more exotic, they might ask for more money, add a 0 to the paid in capital and it should be ok.
Your agent should be able to advise on this matter.

It is EU and well recognized as I see. Spoke with PakImpex, they can't see any of the listed issues in this thread. It should be straight forward to get the residence permit in Zug.

 

[JackAlabama]

It is EU and well recognized as I see. Spoke with PakImpex, they can't see any of the listed issues in this thread. It should be straight forward to get the residence permit in Zug.

Ah then, its easy peasy. You could also just work for the kebab store down the road and be good to go. Eu has freedom of movement and Swiss are bending over backwards respecting that.

The funny thing starts if you had a US or Japan or worse Chinese or worst any African passport and do the company thing. Then best to put 10M capital in and work for it and it might be accepted.

 

[EliasIT]

Ah then, its easy peasy. You could also just work for the kebab store down the road and be good to go. Eu has freedom of movement and Swiss are bending over backwards respecting that.

yeah I already read that on their website. It should be a straight forward process without hassle. That's also why I ignored the replies about the company to be to new, less capital etc. it is all not applicable. I can almost do whatever I want in regards to the relocation.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Definitely not.
Even though travel time is short it is still far by Swiss standards. Moreover, he has to deal with cantonal authorities (Auslaenderkontrollle) and on that level there is not much sympathy for a foreigner who commutes by criss-crossing the country.
That is until he receives Livret C (autorisation d'établissement) which will be earliest after 5 years of continued residency.


Fair question. Let's bring into perspective:

1. First of all, a teacher who earns 90k would be a bad teacher if he pays 20k in taxes. So, there is room.
Second, this teacher does not expect to live in Zug or Lugano in a prime location. He will be fine with standard housing in Winterthur or Oerlikon - not fancy at all.
Third, he will not want to hang out with people at Ellermann's Hummerbar, the Kaufleuten or Café Odeon. A standard Beiz will do, like it is o.k. for most locals.
Fourth, he will rely on 2. class train travel instead of a fancy car.
We can continue this endless. It all depends on the lifestyle.

2. On the other side (of the lifestyle) there is someone with paid in capital of 500k in a not yet registered company with a director, who wants to do business in a country he is about to explore. He starts with prime locations like Zug and Lugano. It can not be expected that this person has the same lifestyle than the teacher since he will -most likely- cater to an upmarket clientele and therefore he himself has completely different expenses than the teacher.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As long as you know your way, have a down-to-earth lifestyle (small flat in working class district, no car, buy stuff at Migros and Denner, no fancy restaurants, daily commute by tram and bus, no taxi at all, no cinema, no theatre or Concert hall) life in Switzerland is affordable. However, in this forum nobody wants this specific down-to-earth lifestyle.
That's what @JohnnyDoe and me tried to explain -> Switzerland is prohibitively expensive when you want to live a life other than working class people do.

Let me add one nightmare: speeding fines. You go to court if your foot is heavy and the judge can be harsh. I am talking 6-figures harsh

 

[EliasIT]

That's what @JohnnyDoe and me tried to explain -> Switzerland is prohibitively expensive when you want to live a life other than working class people do.

With all what I read here, no one of you live in the country where I live. I can assure you, I pay the a*s out of everything I want. The only thing that is cheap right now is my house. Everything else is as expensive as in Switzerland but on top of this I pay 55% in taxes.

You guys don't understand while you either live in a country that is 3rd world or where things are ultra cheap. 16 for a chicken is expensive yeah.. try 25 where I live.

a car that you pay 10K for costs 60K here, the exact same car. Talk about expensive... you guys have no clue what I'm going through.