Obtaining tax residency in Monaco

[KJK]

We are also talking about now. I had a discussion with a lawyer, his client claimed residency in another country. The tax office (of an EU country) got some permission from the state prosecutor and got his bank statements, credit card statements - which you can expect. However they even went the extra mile and got camera shots from highway toll gateways where his car was recorded AND they went to his neighbours to ask what they know about him. I'm not kidding. Now since 2019 also all flight passenger data within EU is recorded and shared.

Just wanted to add this wasn't about some corrupt politician or terrorist. It was an argument about whether he had to pay $4K in income tax (from a contract) or not and the bureaucrats really used such private data about him it was shocking.

 

[Joe Blasco]

Yes, the easiest and most obvious step #1 is to get your card statement. This tells so much about you, the government often doesn't need any other data (if you prefer using card to cash).


We are also talking about now. I had a discussion with a lawyer, his client claimed residency in another country. The tax office (of an EU country) got some permission from the state prosecutor and got his bank statements, credit card statements - which you can expect. However they even went the extra mile and got camera shots from highway toll gateways where his car was recorded AND they went to his neighbours to ask what they know about him. I'm not kidding. Now since 2019 also all flight passenger data within EU is recorded and shared.

The only reason facial recognition isn't used yet so widely is because there is still strong resistance in Germany and other privacy-conscious countries. Many people still understand or remember how technology can be used and abused; if it weren't for IBM and public census with declaring your religion, Nazis would have a more difficult job sending jews to concentration camps.

Gentlemen with all my respect and sympathy, "a lawyer told me", " a friend told me" , "I read on the internet" "the cousin of my friend's son in law told me" this is how urban legends are born. It s very simple: this is a businessmen forum and anonimous. How come there is not ONE person to write "yes it s me, the tax office followed me through facial recognition software and my cell phone signal" Maybe because there is not such a thing? (yet) What will happen next, you will be abducted by alliens?

 

[Gediminas]

Gentlemen with all my respect and sympathy, "a lawyer told me", " a friend told me" , "I read on the internet" "the cousin of my friend's son in law told me" this is how urban legends are born. It s very simple: this is a businessmen forum and anonimous. How come there is not ONE person to write "yes it s me, the tax office followed me through facial recognition software and my cell phone signal" Maybe because there is not such a thing? (yet) What will happen next, you will be abducted by alliens?

I could deny it if I liked. I could deny anything if I liked. - O. W.

 

[Martin Everson]

You say Monaco with all their wealth and rich people do the same like China and most parts in Europe?

Yes they do. I am not even exaggerating .

--- start quote

"A climate of security reigns in Monaco Monte-Carlo making this prestigious setting even more appreciable. Security specialists are unanimous, it would be difficult to live in a place safer than Monaco. One policeman for every 100 residents, a system of 24-hour video surveillance spanning the entire surface area of the Principality, including the majority of residence halls, a transmitting system worthy of the best armies in the world, the possibility of blocking all access in and out of the Principality in several minutes. And we mustn't forget the surveillance teams inside of the Casino and in all of the gambling establishments and hotels."

-- end quote

Security in Monaco - Monaco Monte-Carlo

Many people still understand or remember how technology can be used and abused; if it weren't for IBM and public census with declaring your religion, Nazis would have a more difficult job sending jews to concentration camps.

That's my concern. With such levels of data collection how does one protect themselves if the state turns rogue? Imagine the Nazi's had access to the sort of information collected on citizens today more jews would have been killed. History repeats itself and its wrong to think such things can never happen in Europe again.

 

[countryfree]

However they even went the extra mile and got camera shots from highway toll gateways where his car was recorded AND they went to his neighbours to ask what they know about him. I'm not kidding.

I'm very surprised with this. I don't think this is possible because taxmen are slow. Not all highways toll gateways take pictures, and when they do, they don't keep them for long. I think all data is deleted after 7 days, maybe 30 days, no more. In the EU countries I know, this data is only available to the police, when they look for a criminal. In what country did this happen?

Finally, there's a big difference between MC and oppressive states. People trust Prince Albert. He just want his country to be very safe. Nobody has ever been arrested for dubious or arbitrary reasons in MC.

 

[Martin Everson]

I don't think this is possible because taxmen are slow.

Biggest myths there is im afraid. Times have changed in digital age where information can be obtained more readily even years later.

 

[Konstanz]

I'm very surprised with this. I don't think this is possible because taxmen are slow. Not all highways toll gateways take pictures, and when they do, they don't keep them for long. I think all data is deleted after 7 days, maybe 30 days, no more. In the EU countries I know, this data is only available to the police, when they look for a criminal. In what country did this happen?

Finally, there's a big difference between MC and oppressive states. People trust Prince Albert. He just want his country to be very safe. Nobody has ever been arrested for dubious or arbitrary reasons in MC.

Exactly, the big difference MC between repressive states with goal to extract everything. MC is all abou safety nothing more. It's true that MC residents fully trust prince Albert and MC govenment.

Even in Dubai you have limitations as blocked Viber, Whatapp etc..

 

[Joe Blasco]

[QU

Exactly, the big difference MC between repressive states with goal to extract everything. MC is all abou safety nothing more. It's true that MC residents fully trust prince Albert and MC govenment.

Even in Dubai you have limitations as blocked Viber, Whatapp etc..

so you want to say that your face is not continuously scanned and compared with a huge data base if you are actually walking the streets or if you you hid and escaped through the barbed wires (is this Monaco or Auschwitz?) and no speach recognition software is used in all the countries you visit to match the pitch of your voice through your cellphone to notify the Monaco Tax office that you are not there?? How is this possible???

 

[Konstanz]

[QU

so you want to say that your face is not continuously scanned and compared with a huge data base if you are actually walking the streets or if you you hid and escaped through the barbed wires (is this Monaco or Auschwitz?) and no speach recognition software is used in all the countries you visit to match the pitch of your voice through your cellphone to notify the Monaco Tax office that you are not there?? How is this possible???

Monaco is interested in real residents only to comply with international regulations and make sure residents really live there. So, they do trace residents to make sure they really live in MC.

 

[Joe Blasco]

Monaco is interested in real residents only to comply with international regulations and make sure residents really live there. So, they do trace residents to make sure they really live in MC.

some people are overeacting like they trasnport every other week two tons of blanquita in their own fantasy and some others are playing along this paranoia to offer some " financial service" , albeit some medical doctor would be more appropriate

 

[Konstanz]

some people are overeacting like they trasnport every other week two tons of blanquita in their own fantasy and some others are playing along this paranoia to offer some " financial service" , albeit some medical doctor would be more appropriate

Well it's not paranoia. Let's say you live in Italy and you claim you live in Dubai and you are tax resident in Dubai. Sooner or later tax man will ask you to provide evidence that you really live in Dubai. If you have no evidence or you provide some not realistic evidence, they will calculate you tax in Italy.

I think you really misunderstood this all conversation here

 

[JohnLocke]

Yes they do. I am not even exaggerating .

--- start quote

"A climate of security reigns in Monaco Monte-Carlo making this prestigious setting even more appreciable. Security specialists are unanimous, it would be difficult to live in a place safer than Monaco. One policeman for every 100 residents, a system of 24-hour video surveillance spanning the entire surface area of the Principality, including the majority of residence halls, a transmitting system worthy of the best armies in the world, the possibility of blocking all access in and out of the Principality in several minutes. And we mustn't forget the surveillance teams inside of the Casino and in all of the gambling establishments and hotels."

-- end quote

Security in Monaco - Monaco Monte-Carlo



That's my concern. With such levels of data collection how does one protect themselves if the state turns rogue? Imagine the Nazi's had access to the sort of information collected on citizens today more jews would have been killed. History repeats itself and its wrong to think such things can never happen in Europe again.

That's enough for me to know. I would never come there don't even for holidays, this type of surveillance breaks all privacy. Safe place OK but I hope it's not what is required to stay so in other countries.

 

[Gediminas]

That's enough for me to know. I would never come there don't even for holidays, this type of surveillance breaks all privacy. Safe place OK but I hope it's not what is required to stay so in other countries.

You want to visit Monaco!

 

[Joe Blasco]

Well it's not paranoia. Let's say you live in Italy and you claim you live in Dubai and you are tax resident in Dubai. Sooner or later tax man will ask you to provide evidence that you really live in Dubai. If you have no evidence or you provide some not realistic evidence, they will calculate you tax in Italy.

I think you really misunderstood this all conversation here

It s another thing the tax man requesting your residency and tax residency papers and you , having some basic precautions not to provide a strong paper trail that you are still where you are not supposed to be and another thing to claim , that the tax office is scanning your face , to check u r on the street or not or the air waves in foreign countries to catch your voice signature.

 

[Konstanz]

It s another thing the tax man requesting your residency and tax residency papers and you , having some basic precautions not to provide a strong paper trail that you are still where you are not supposed to be and another thing to claim , that the tax office is scanning your face , to check u r on the street or not or the air waves in foreign countries to catch your voice signature.

At some extent correct. Governments can trace phone movement, scanning car plates around, credit/debit cards entries are recorded etc. About voice recognition might be not so realistic...

 

[Gediminas]

About voice recognition might be not so realistic...

I would agree with that. Sounds like one more theory conspiracy.

 

[KJK]

Gentlemen with all my respect and sympathy, "a lawyer told me", " a friend told me" , "I read on the internet" "the cousin of my friend's son in law told me" this is how urban legends are born. It s very simple: this is a businessmen forum and anonimous. How come there is not ONE person to write "yes it s me, the tax office followed me through facial recognition software and my cell phone signal" Maybe because there is not such a thing? (yet) What will happen next, you will be abducted by alliens?

What I mentioned is not an urban legend. It is a real case where the person claimed to be tax resident in a tax haven while still often visiting his home country. They used card statements, neighbours and highway toll gate records against him. It went through three courts (local court, regional court and supreme administrative court).

This happened in 2014 and it was about €4k. Let that sink in, 6 years ago, today you have better data, better reporting, better technology.

I can send you the real court decision PDF if don't trust me and want proof (PM me if interested) though I'm not sure if it will help you as it is 10 non-English pages of law speak. He didn't go to jail but he had to pay back taxes + interest + a fine.

I'm very surprised with this. I don't think this is possible because taxmen are slow. Not all highways toll gateways take pictures, and when they do, they don't keep them for long. I think all data is deleted after 7 days, maybe 30 days, no more. In the EU countries I know, this data is only available to the police, when they look for a criminal. In what country did this happen?


Finally, there's a big difference between MC and oppressive states. People trust Prince Albert. He just want his country to be very safe. Nobody has ever been arrested for dubious or arbitrary reasons in MC.

Yes it is possible. You can never count on data being "truly deleted". The same applies to the new passenger information exchange system valid from 2019. Officially they claim that the data will be "anonymized" after 6 months so that older information cannot be obtained, however how exactly that deanonymization looks and why keep anonymized data at all remains a mystery. Or maybe not a mystery, they just don't want to say this data will be available forever from now on.

By the way "data only available to the police" is nonsense. Usually police and state prosecutor work hand in hand (against the individual) with presumption of guilt. Only when you get to court there should be presumption of innocence. What can happen is the tax office automatically reports suspicion of fraud/tax evasion (the office is forced by law to report it), police can investigate, police gets permission from prosecutor which is usually just a formality. Then they get all the data they want.

And the situation is even worse than you can imagine a) in China and b) in "golden cage" countries such as Monaco, Saudi etc. Even the situation in the UK is insane, get on a bus and there are 7 cameras inside.

 

[Reinassance]

Monaco is a very nice place but not suitable for young people.
If you're over 50 and you want to "retire" is perfect.
Last time i went there i was impressed by the amount of escorts i saw.

Talking about Monaco strictness:
Isabela dos santos, billionaire daughter of Angola former Dictator had some serious wealth parked in Montecarlo: a 53M € apartment and 200+ millions in cash deposit.
I guess Monaco strict due diligence only applies to those average joe's with a few milllion of net worth, made with hard work.

 

[Martin Everson]

Even the situation in the UK is insane, get on a bus and there are 7 cameras inside.

Exactly even once I took a rental hire car while on holiday in UK and drove through Victoria and saw ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) signs....lol. I would tell people 100% not to be ignorant of the mass surveillance they are under in the UK. HMRC even tells you openly in their letters they send you that they monitor social media and other forms of information to gather information on you . You are being watched and even tracked if you drive or use a phone on the train system .

UK ANPR systems are one of the ‘world’s biggest surveillance systems’

Here's What TfL Learned From Tracking Your Phone On the Tube

 

[JohnSeed]

Yup 100%, with number plate recognition etc when you enter and leave monaco and cameras everywhere they can track your entire visit and movement from entry to exit. I thought I was the only person that noticed the share amount of cameras sometimes 4-6 cameras grouped together. I am sure they must have facial recognition technology.

What a shitty place. I hope the Sun is shining at other places without cameras.