Moved to Swiss - German Tax man is after me.

[Freeman01]

It is counted per tax year which is -if I am not mistaken- calendar year in Germany. It is all written out in the tax laws of Germany. What you need to take into account is the day where you formally deregistered yourself in Germany and the day where you formally registered yourself in Switzerland.

Thanks for the reply. That is fine. basically I deregistered in Germany and registered directly after that in Switzerland. As far as I understand the accountant said, that this is the date till then the German are allowed to tax me. So even if you moved lets say in 01.12.2022 to Switzerland, they are not allowed to Tax december. So that is a bit confusing then, how they calculate the 183 days for 2022. Anyway will see : )

Its still work in progress. Two years and counting. I dont think I will end up settling anything as they are chasing a non existent case. Will I ever be informed or acquitted? No. It will just be left alone and archived.

Interesting. As far as I know they, have 4 years to recheck. 10 years sounds like a lot, I think after 10 years anyway they can't claim anything. In my case it is no that easy to sit it out, because they basically demanded more than they should have. So we did an appeal. Now I didn't had to pay the money, but the disputed amount is now under 6% interest rate. So if they win, or have the right to claim, sitting this out is in my disadvantage.

Agree, if they don't have a case they will likely not do anything. Just sit it out. Wish you good luck man!

 

[GPT]

So even if you moved lets say in 01.12.2022 to Switzerland, they are not allowed to Tax december. So that is a bit confusing then, how they calculate the 183 days for 2022. Anyway will see : )

basically its 183 days (check the exact amount) for 12 months which makes it roughly 15.25 days per month. In your case you could be away for 15 days in December and still be home free provided that tax wise they there are no exceptions.

There are countries that will tax you for the full year if you move in the last quarter of that year. Or in some cases you have to apply at your tax authorities to be exempted from filing because of deregistering. Again, speak to your tax specialist. I am not up to date on German tax laws. Im just spilling experiences in general here.

Interesting. As far as I know they, have 4 years to recheck. 10 years sounds like a lot, I think after 10 years anyway they can't claim anything. In my case it is no that easy to sit it out, because they basically demanded more than they should have. So we did an appeal. Now I didn't had to pay the money, but the disputed amount is now under 6% interest rate. So if they win, or have the right to claim, sitting this out is in my disadvantage.

Agree, if they don't have a case they will likely not do anything. Just sit it out. Wish you good luck man!

The 10 years is written in the tax law (not Germany) subject to this case (me). Not much I can do about that. Once it becomes international the 7 years automatically extends to 10 years.

You are getting at a crossroad where at one point you need to decide for yourself on what is cheaper financially, mentally and spiritually. Fighting tax authorities is one of the worst battles you can fight. It drains you.

Good luck.

 

[Revoltec]

basically its 183 days (check the exact amount) for 12 months which makes it roughly 15.25 days per month. In your case you could be away for 15 days in December and still be home free provided that tax wise they there are no exceptions.

There are countries that will tax you for the full year if you move in the last quarter of that year. Or in some cases you have to apply at your tax authorities to be exempted from filing because of deregistering. Again, speak to your tax specialist. I am not up to date on German tax laws. Im just spilling experiences in general here.


The 10 years is written in the tax law (not Germany) subject to this case (me). Not much I can do about that. Once it becomes international the 7 years automatically extends to 10 years.

You are getting at a crossroad where at one point you need to decide for yourself on what is cheaper financially, mentally and spiritually. Fighting tax authorities is one of the worst battles you can fight. It drains you.

Good luck.

The rule for counting days is just a trigger and mostly used for domestic taxation. This case is between 2 countries with tax treaties in place, therefore @Freeman01 is correct about the fact that if you move out 01.12.2022 you will not be taxed for december in Germany provided that your permanent home is now in Switzerland. This is due to the OECD standard for tie-breaker rules. Registered address in Switzerland for that period should be enough.

 

[GPT]

The rule for counting days is just a trigger and mostly used for domestic taxation. This case is between 2 countries with tax treaties in place, therefore @Freeman01 is correct about the fact that if you move out 01.12.2022 you will not be taxed for december in Germany provided that your permanent home is now in Switzerland. This is due to the OECD standard for tie-breaker rules. Registered address in Switzerland for that period should be enough.

"Provided that your permanent home is now in Switzerland". He already mentioned that in the first period there was a lot of back and forth between Germany and Switzerland. Hence me mentioning receipts, tickets, atm transactions etc. The days criteria for the month of December will be applied pro rata which means that if he spent more than 15 days in Germany in that December month that he will be taxed in Germany for that month.

 

[Freeman01]

The rule for counting days is just a trigger and mostly used for domestic taxation. This case is between 2 countries with tax treaties in place, therefore @Freeman01 is correct about the fact that if you move out 01.12.2022 you will not be taxed for december in Germany provided that your permanent home is now in Switzerland. This is due to the OECD standard for tie-breaker rules. Registered address in Switzerland for that period should be enough.

Thanks for the confirmation. Hope so.

"Provided that your permanent home is now in Switzerland". He already mentioned that in the first period there was a lot of back and forth between Germany and Switzerland. Hence me mentioning receipts, tickets, atm transactions etc. The days criteria for the month of December will be applied pro rata which means that if he spent more than 15 days in Germany in that December month that he will be taxed in Germany for that month.

Based on this I'm fine as well. Basically if 15 days a months are allowed, I was for sure not that much in Germany. Hope the Tax Man is somehow reasonable, but you never know.
Actually hope to settle somehow with the guys. Will see)

 

[GPT]

Hope the Tax Man is somehow reasonable, but you never know.
Actually hope to settle somehow with the guys. Will see)

The burden of proof is on you though The only thing the taxman has to do is ask you to proof it..

 

[Freeman01]

The burden of proof is on you though The only thing the taxman has to do is ask you to proof it..

I think I can. But of course you are kind of right. Seem like for the Tax Man you are guilty until proven otherwise. Will see what they will say. There are some things they might try. Actually according to the accountants. and I asked few, the case is clear in my favor (but you never know). Yeah it is a bit strange in total. maybe will just pay them (worst case). And then sue them, so to get the money back (because otherwise, I would have to pay interest if I loose).

 

[Revoltec]

I think I can. But of course you are kind of right. Seem like for the Tax Man you are guilty until proven otherwise. Will see what they will say. There are some things they might try. Actually according to the accountants. and I asked few, the case is clear in my favor (but you never know). Yeah it is a bit strange in total. maybe will just pay them (worst case). And then sue them, so to get the money back (because otherwise, I would have to pay interest if I loose).

Check if the interest is lower than the inflation first

But when did you actually deregister from Germany? By how the laws are written, if the criteria if permanent home is defined, nothing else will be looked at. But then Germany also got dwelling based taxation so that can be up to evaluation.

 

[Freeman01]

Check if the interest is lower than the inflation first

The disputed amount is on a 6% interest rate. So it is hard to beat when investing yourself. Even if you might get 6% on EUR, it would be still not a good deal, since you have to pay taxes on interest.

But when did you actually deregister from Germany? By how the laws are written, if the criteria if permanent home is defined, nothing else will be looked at. But then Germany also got dwelling based taxation so that can be up to evaluation.

Deregistered when moved. According to the accountants, I did everything by the rules and it should be fine. Still a bit worried, because I was already told the same in the past and got more questions from the tax man. Basically if they take the rule 183 days, or max 2 months in Germany, I'm fine. Even if it would be 120 days I would be fine as well.

If you go down the rabbit hole, then you notice that there are some cases where the tax man might still try to tax you (even if you don't have an apartment). Like okay, you are often visiting the same place, or the same people. We just assume that you have permanent access to that house and you never left Germany. Not sure how realistic this is, it just feels a bit that the tax man doesn't act in good faith.

 

[EliasIT]

I'm also a bit afraid that they might cause more problems, for example when talking to Swiss authorities and point on me for whatever reason (did everything as it was suggested by the accountants - but it is a bit of grey area).

Based on what I have observed from cases of people in other European countries, Switzerland seems to be a haven for those who have run into trouble with tax authorities in their own countries. I know personally that there are quite a few people from Sweden, Denmark, and Italy in Switzerland because authorities in their home countries can't do much in Switzerland, as it is a non-EU country and there is no legal judgment.

The latter is crucial; if you don't leave your country and settle in Switzerland before receiving a legal judgment, then it's game over, and you have to pay. But if you manage to leave before that, they can't do much.
I am aware of nearly 100 people living in Switzerland for many years for the same reason.

I would suggest looking into this with a German or Swiss tax attorney - it shouldn't cost much to get an answer on this. And if it turns out that the same applies in your case, then either stay in Switzerland or leave for Dubai, where the situation is roughly the same.

The basic premise here is probably that you are not Sanjay Shah and haven't defrauded billions.

 

[Freeman01]

The latter is crucial; if you don't leave your country and settle in Switzerland before receiving a legal judgment, then it's game over, and you have to pay. But if you manage to leave before that, they can't do much.
I am aware of nearly 100 people living in Switzerland for many years for the same reason.

What do you mean that they can't do much? I mean they can request the money, or even claim you own us much more. Sure I could say no, but then I guess they have the instruments to somehow get it. Even at the border. Or let's say even, a hypothetical case, someone cheated in Germany and now they say he should go to jail for it. How does Switzerland protect you from that?

I would suggest looking into this with a German or Swiss tax attorney - it shouldn't cost much to get an answer on this. And if it turns out that the same applies in your case, then either stay in Switzerland or leave for Dubai, where the situation is roughly the same.

Yeah sure, that is what I have done. Spoke to two, one is an expert in German / Swiss regulations - both said it shouldn't be a problem. The thing is just, "talk is cheap", because last time they made similar statement. Like it is obviously an error and they would correct it after a quick call.

And if it turns out that the same applies in your case, then either stay in Switzerland or leave for Dubai, where the situation is roughly the same.

Yeah I mean, actually (although that sounds crazy) I wanted to return to Germany. If somehow things go sideways ( I mean that would be bending the law to somehow press me). Then would just leave, far away, like Dubai. Kind of crazy. Consider myself as a productive member of society and have payed already more taxes than other in their whole lifetime. But the tax man treats you like ***

 

[freegeek]

The disputed amount is on a 6% interest rate. So it is hard to beat when investing yourself. Even if you might get 6% on EUR, it would be still not a good deal, since you have to pay taxes on interest.


Deregistered when moved. According to the accountants, I did everything by the rules and it should be fine. Still a bit worried, because I was already told the same in the past and got more questions from the tax man. Basically if they take the rule 183 days, or max 2 months in Germany, I'm fine. Even if it would be 120 days I would be fine as well.

If you go down the rabbit hole, then you notice that there are some cases where the tax man might still try to tax you (even if you don't have an apartment). Like okay, you are often visiting the same place, or the same people. We just assume that you have permanent access to that house and you never left Germany. Not sure how realistic this is, it just feels a bit that the tax man doesn't act in good faith.

Belgian tax authorities use whatever they can, Belgians have been prosecuted because they still had "substance" in Belgium. The "substance" we are talking about is a Belgian mobie number subscription or a fitness subscription.

 

[GPT]

Yeah sure, that is what I have done. Spoke to two, one is an expert in German / Swiss regulations - both said it shouldn't be a problem. The thing is just, "talk is cheap", because last time they made similar statement. Like it is obviously an error and they would correct it after a quick call.

Ok, back to basics here and ill use an army example; one = none, two = one and three = done.

In other words, speak with three specialists. Two of them are likely giving an answer in roughly the same direction. You pick the one you feel you can work with the best (not like the most). If you get three different answers, speak with a fourth one. etc.

And you get what you pay for, so be sure to speak with specialists that charge you.