Moved from Germany to Switzerland. Crypto Trader. Not Happy. What next?

[fortunespeculator]

Let's talk numbers a bit:

It is in the 6 figures for 2020 and it is in 7 figures in 2021
I relocated in the middle of 2021. According to my lawyer I'm taxable till the mid of 2021 in Germany. After that in Switzerland. Best year would be 2021 so far.


I did payed nothing yet. So that is the reason I'm getting a nervous a bit. Have to make the declaration for Germany till 31.07.22 (for all the past). Actually I wanted to make do it very clean with Germany. The reason is I'm planning coming back and that every bank/broker asks for the source of wealth. Then at least it would be possible to prove it. It doesn't make sense to have so much money in crypto. Just a bit pissed of Switzerland since they want already some numbers, which I can't provide until the declaration in Germany is finished.



Exactly. I'm aware of it. Actually moved to Switzerland to protect future profits. But that might have been an error on my side.


I traded on a lot of exchanges. Most are outside of Europe. I think the risk of sharing data comes from the big ones like binance. So even If I do this kind of trick. Who knows if later the law would require to report large balances to European countries. Of course nobody knows. But if the chance is only 5%, I don't want to take it (jail time in Germany).


According to the rules I would be resident in Switzerland. The alternative would be Germany (which isn't better). You just need 90 days to become taxable in Switzerland.
I'm not saying Switzerland is very bad. Just it also is kind of expensive. Like I think even 34% tax if you are classified as a trader. Still better then Germany, but not so much better and isn't worth the effort at the end.

Can you connect with me.Please write on my profile.

 

[Konstanz]

It depends how much money you have. Monaco is 0% income tax. Same timezone as Germany. Not far away from Germany.
Andorra is 10% income tax (in theory). but I think you can avoid paying anything , because no CFC or effective place of management rules in Andorra.

 

[fortunespeculator]

Can you connect with me.Please write on my profile.

I want to buy some btc

 

[jafo]

Let's talk numbers a bit:

It is in the 6 figures for 2020 and it is in 7 figures in 2021
I relocated in the middle of 2021. According to my lawyer I'm taxable till the mid of 2021 in Germany. After that in Switzerland. Best year would be 2021 so far.


I did payed nothing yet. So that is the reason I'm getting a nervous a bit. Have to make the declaration for Germany till 31.07.22 (for all the past). Actually I wanted to make do it very clean with Germany. The reason is I'm planning coming back and that every bank/broker asks for the source of wealth. Then at least it would be possible to prove it. It doesn't make sense to have so much money in crypto. Just a bit pissed of Switzerland since they want already some numbers, which I can't provide until the declaration in Germany is finished.



Exactly. I'm aware of it. Actually moved to Switzerland to protect future profits. But that might have been an error on my side.


I traded on a lot of exchanges. Most are outside of Europe. I think the risk of sharing data comes from the big ones like binance. So even If I do this kind of trick. Who knows if later the law would require to report large balances to European countries. Of course nobody knows. But if the chance is only 5%, I don't want to take it (jail time in Germany).


According to the rules I would be resident in Switzerland. The alternative would be Germany (which isn't better). You just need 90 days to become taxable in Switzerland.
I'm not saying Switzerland is very bad. Just it also is kind of expensive. Like I think even 34% tax if you are classified as a trader. Still better then Germany, but not so much better and isn't worth the effort at the end.

Did you solve your "tax" problems?
What percentage did you lose in "taxes"?

Did you move out of Zug?

If affirmative, where did you go?

PS. I was in Zug, but moved to Zurich! I am only paying wealth taxes <0.3% (plus very little inc tax). Working on a project, but it is not generating income at this time besides my regular business.

 

[pixbix]

Hello guys,

I was very successful trading Crypto in the last years. So decided to go to Switzerland Zug. Though it would be a good location for crypto.
Right now working on my Tax returns for Germany for 2020 and 2021. It is really a night mare and I have to pay about nearly 50%, if I don't and they found out it's jail time..

To be honest I become kind of disappointed in Zug. It was extremely difficult to find a bank that accepts crypto without a lot of paper work. Most banks refused, without a German Tax decleration.
It is very expensive. Authorities want all the time something from me like money for firefighting, money for cable, some other small things it's kind of something new each time. I'm often abroad and can easily miss such small bills or papers that I have to answer.
To be honest I never had so much paper work or things to fill out. Even in Germany. Also the Tax authorities already contacted me and want some deceleration for 2021. It feels really pushy, I'm already afraid they are after me for whatever reason.

Regarding Taxes it seems that if you are qualified as professional trader ( guess it is 80/20 in my case) it would be something like 30% (20% Tax + 10% social). So you would get about 15% advantage over Germany. But I'm not sure if is worth it. 2022 wasn't so far so high so it may even not matter. Just afraid that they create even more trouble then the German authorities. Also it seems that it is possible to make the declaration in Germany one year later compared to Switzerland. Guess that can bring the advantage down to 10%.

So back to the question . I'm thinking of going back to Germany - if the Tax declaration will go smoothly. Parents and Friends are there. Its hard to leave especially my parents behind.

Is there some legal construction (which makes sense for let's say 1m$ revenues), where I could create a Company (before going back to Germany), so that it would be less headache.
Ideally it would be a location with lower taxes and where a simple PnL (Balance begin of the year - Balance end of the year + withdrawals - expenses) would be enough. It's just a lot of work to declare every trade (what is currently required in Germany), especially since sometimes exchanges don't have clean data. I know CFC Rules would apply if the TAX is is lover then 25%, but maybe I could hire some people or maybe I'm lucky and they will lower the rate later to 15% (not that optimistic about it ).
So looking for some easy and flexible solution.

Spoke with a lawyer and he says a lof of his clients are heading to UAE. Don't want to make this step.

Hope you guys have some ideas. Was even thinking to sell this thing somehow but since it runs on private account not sure anyone would buy it (for a very high price).

Choose a country with zero tax for crypto or zero tax for capital gain inside EU, so they will not know how many days you really stayed there. keep a low profile.
If Andrew tate can do it, with his big mouth , you can also.

Zero tax on crypto can be portugal: by one of those houses for 1000 to 5000$, fix irt, have fun ,make friends in an old city that's no more than 30% abandoned by they have 4 G connection. avoid anything 70%+ abandoned.
have fun there, girls are easy if you are white guy from germany, learn some portughese, update your facebook profile with photos from portugal.
have an no log PROXY , and use computer only , not the facebook app that can spy on you.

 

[calif89]

Did you solve your "tax" problems?
What percentage did you lose in "taxes"?

Did you move out of Zug?

If affirmative, where did you go?

PS. I was in Zug, but moved to Zurich! I am only paying wealth taxes <0.3% (plus very little inc tax). Working on a project, but it is not generating income at this time besides my regular business.

Crypto Project?

 

[jafo]

Crypto Project?

Noooo.... I use crypto as a tool to advance my business. I think of it as a different currency. So, instead of paying in US $ or Euro €, I try to pay in crypto... if e.g. Yuan is not accepted. Most of my clients, +95%, accept other types of currency other than $ or €.

I do however accept crypto in exchange for samples though. I'm NOT comfortable paying V, MC, or AMEX a big % and being tortured financially while having my funds frozen.
Crimes/problems are directly correlated to the number of humans involved in the transactions.

 

[calif89]

Noooo.... I use crypto as a tool to advance my business. I think of it as a different currency. So, instead of paying in US $ or Euro €, I try to pay in crypto... if e.g. Yuan is not accepted. Most of my clients, +95%, accept other types of currency other than $ or €.

I do however accept crypto in exchange for samples though. I'm NOT comfortable paying V, MC, or AMEX a big % and being tortured financially while having my funds frozen.
Crimes/problems are directly correlated to the number of humans involved in the transactions.

Thank you for your reply.

If you receive Payments for Dev-Work or anything in Crypto, do you have to know the name/address of your counterparty? In germany you have to... Pretty sad. A lot of work of anon projects (creating websites for crypto projects or doing graphic design etc.) is very well paid, but I cannot accept it

What country u live in if you dont mind me asking

 

[jafo]

What country u live in if you dont mind me asking

To avoid issues, reporting, confusion, or "expenses" I am registered in CH with a Pauschalbesteuerung.

PS. I am NOT German and NEVER lived in Germany or anywhere in the EU. I am European by jus sanguinis and was born in a former European colony far away from continental Europe. Parents are 100% European-born.

 

[koyoloas]

Thank you for your reply.

If you receive Payments for Dev-Work or anything in Crypto, do you have to know the name/address of your counterparty? In germany you have to... Pretty sad. A lot of work of anon projects (creating websites for crypto projects or doing graphic design etc.) is very well paid, but I cannot accept it

What country u live in if you dont mind me asking

What is the problem with just putting in some random address? If the counterparty says his name is „Carlos“, how can someone prove otherwise? Do you need to make KYC before creating a website for someone?
Tax authorities won’t care.

 

[bizman]

Leave Europe while you still can, and if you have enough cash, take your parents with you. It's going to be a long winter this year in Europe. Food shortages, heating shortages, rolling blackouts.

And it never happened!

To avoid issues, reporting, confusion, or "expenses" I am registered in CH with a Pauschalbesteuerung.

What's the benefit of this if you don't mind to elaborate a little ?

 

[jafo]

What's the benefit of this if you don't mind to elaborate a little ?

This explains it pretty well: The three requirements for lump-sum taxation in Switzerland

 

[bizman]

Ohhh, ouch only if I have to pay at least 150,000 franc in taxes I could take advantage of the lump sum taxation system

“The threshold for this privilege is if you have a tax bill of around 150,000 francs.”