I've found someone who dislikes public servants just as much as Johnny and also some empirical proofs regarding mafias in Europe

[JohnnyDoe]

more profitable to come to an agreement than to fight for every sandwich - that's the key to our dominance in nature - but this biological success

Unfortunately, this “dominance” is nothing more than parasitism. It is the biological success of a parasite over its host.
The parasitic nature of man extends into human relationships, where individuals exploit one another, degrading into systems of oppression all the way to slavery, with the state as the supreme embodiment of such degeneration.
The fight for freedom is a fight against parasitism at all levels.

 

[void]

Unfortunately, this “dominance” is nothing more than parasitism. It is the biological success of a parasite over its host.
The parasitic nature of man extends into human relationships, where individuals exploit one another, degrading into systems of oppression all the way to slavery, with the state as the supreme embodiment of such degeneration.
The fight for freedom is a fight against parasitism at all levels.

ok, we are diving deeper and deeper but let's make it clear - biologically more accurate term is predation (rather then parasitism) and then what you stated is correct

freedom is nothing implicitly virtuous or better (despite people like us naturally feel that way) - it's simply better because it has economical incentives - free market or anarchocapitalism maximizes average wealth (mathematically speaking the expected value)

central planning (especially democracy) on the other hand evenly distributes poverty

 

[JohnnyDoe]

ok, we are diving deeper and deeper but let's make it clear - biologically more accurate term is predation (rather then parasitism) and then what you stated is correct

I disagree. In nature, predators and parasites have very different approaches to survival. A predator strikes quickly: think of a lion taking down a gazelle or a hawk swooping down on a mouse. It's a brief but dramatic encounter that typically ends in one meal. Parasites, on the other hand, play the long game. They set up shop in or on their host and feed off them gradually, usually being careful not to kill their living food source.
It's like the difference between someone stealing your whole wallet versus someone skimming a little money from your account again and again over time, so that you (almost) don’t notice it until one day you realize you have become broke.

 

[void]

I disagree. In nature, predators and parasites have very different approaches to survival. A predator strikes quickly: think of a lion taking down a gazelle or a hawk swooping down on a mouse. It's a brief but dramatic encounter that typically ends in one meal. Parasites, on the other hand, play the long game. They set up shop in or on their host and feed off them gradually, usually being careful not to kill their living food source.
It's like the difference between someone stealing your whole wallet versus someone skimming a little money from your account again and again over time, so that you (almost) don’t notice it until one day you realize you have become broke.

good point...
would you say grass claiming the ground or a plant with big leaves prohibiting other plants from accessing the sunlight is a predator or a parasite?
is the rabbit with super fast legs actually hurting a fox that is not able kill it and starves to death? who is the predator here?

I love this

 

[JohnnyDoe]

good point...
would you say grass claiming the ground or a plant with big leaves prohibiting other plants from accessing the sunlight is a predator or a parasite?

This is neither predation nor parasitism, but competition in equilibrium. Plants don’t kill other plants (predation), they simply outcompete them. They don’t live in or on other plants to extract resources from them (parasitism), they use and recycle the existing resources, contributing to the enrichment and evolution of the environment.

is the rabbit with super fast legs actually hurting a fox that is not able kill it and starves to death? who is the predator here?

The rabbit is just avoiding predation. Pursuit and escape dynamics are part of the predatory environment. The fox remains the predator and the rabbit the prey. Such dynamics fuel natural selection and evolution of the species.

Predation, parasitism, competition and cooperation form the dynamics of an ecosystem.
Unlike other species, each man has the freedom to choose which path to follow, and the responsibility to discern which is best.

 

[whatspat]

Aren't predation and parasitism simply forms of competition? Are they permitted in this community which has no central authority? Where is the return on defending the weak, sick and poor?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Aren't predation and parasitism simply forms of competition? Are they permitted in this community which has no central authority? Where is the return on defending the weak, sick and poor?

Predation and parasitism are competitive strategies but not equivalent to competition. In a decentralized community, supporting each other, including the weak, sick and poor, increases stability and collective resilience, offering a form of return that benefits everyone in the long run. It's like how a healthy forest isn't just about the biggest trees, but about all the plants supporting each other through connected root systems, and the fruits falling to the ground freely available for the animals, in return for fertilization and spreading of the seeds.

 

[W Fish]

This predation / parasitation concept is interesting.
I would have thouhgt there is trade besides or rather on top of them.
If Peter is better at hunting and John is better at fishing and they both do what they do best and trade/exchange, then they _both_ will be better off.
This might be unique to humans.

 

[void]

it's all competition and power projection in different forms - foxes, rabbits, grass and trees play the same game of never ending pursuit of capturing energy and defying entropy

 

[JohnnyDoe]

This predation / parasitation concept is interesting.
I would have thouhgt there is trade besides or rather on top of them.
If Peter is better at hunting and John is better at fishing and they both do what they do best and trade/exchange, then they _both_ will be better off.
This might be unique to humans.

Trade is a form of free cooperation that is (almost) unique to humans. One of the main functions of the state is to limit free trade.
When the state limits free trade, it disrupts the natural mechanisms that drive human growth, economic opportunity and innovation. When markets are let free to operate, people can pursue their passions and abilities to the fullest. This allows societies to progress naturally, as people collaborate, compete, and freely exchange ideas and goods. The freedom of the free market enables individuals to reach their full potential, and this organic process is what drives progress.
Therefore, the state is the main obstacle to human evolution and an aberration of nature.

 

[void]

Trade is a form of free cooperation, that is (almost) unique to humans. One of the main functions of the state is to limit free trade.
When the state limits free trade, it disrupts the natural mechanisms that drive human growth, economic opportunity and innovation. When markets are let free to operate, people can pursue their passions and abilities to the fullest. This allows societies to progress naturally, as people collaborate, compete, and freely exchange ideas and goods. The freedom of the free market enables individuals to reach their full potential, and this organic process is what drives progress.
Therefore, the state is the main obstacle to human evolution and an aberration of nature.

very well said

 

[daniels27]

Thank you @void @JohnnyDoe @W Fish I like this conversation. I appreciate the philosophical aspects.

Trade is a form of free cooperation that is (almost) unique to humans.

Yes, and it requires some form of currencies. Let's take Lions and humans. Old lions are usually kicked out of their territory their female companion is also taken over. Humans have money and even the oldest guys can still get young women with money.

One of the main functions of the state is to limit free trade.

Therefore, the state is the main obstacle to human evolution and an aberration of nature.

Yes, totally agree.

But what I am still interested. If we clear the planet of countries. What would then come? Wouldn't it be companies building cities (Google Smart City), issuing their own cryptos (Metacoin, Line coins), upgrade their corporate security guards to police. Then expand and merge cities and eventually, which will eventually turn into small Duchies, eventually becoming as powerful as countries are now?

you are correct that the relations between countries resemble the free market the most of all the cases in physical world nowadays - what you're missing is the fact that people don't voluntarily work for these companies (aka countries), they are kept as slaves

If you talk to spotify, netflix, epic games, they already claim today that they don't voluntarily work for Google play store, but are being kept as slaves paying 30% "taxes". And Googe also has been named a "parasite" in many forums and news articles for their act to charge 30% to the content creators.

How would you ensure that a free market does not become host to any parasitic players?

 

[void]

If we clear the planet of countries.

old mental pattern, wrong approach, freedom cannot be installed using force and coercion

end of states must come from the bottom up by understanding it's economically more beneficial not to be a slave but self-reliant individual (which by no means implies that we cannot form our own higher level structures of individuals based on any incentives)

What would then come? Wouldn't it be companies building cities (Google Smart City), issuing their own cryptos (Metacoin, Line coins), upgrade their corporate security guards to police. Then expand and merge cities and eventually, which will eventually turn into small Duchies, eventually becoming as powerful as countries are now?

there will always be malicious actors that will (try to) violate private property of others - but states and their laws are the biggest obstacles in formation of society where individuals (and whatever groups they decide to voluntarily form) can defend their property - private property is the key to human superior position and success in the nature, it's a tool to conserve energy outside our own bodies to the benefit of ourselves and our offspring in time - organized crime entities (on the highest level called states) are the parasitic structures that evolved to feed on these reserves - hence the imperative to build tools to conserve our reserves/wealth out of their reach - that's why bitcoin is bigger than the internet, it changes the rules of our so far futile fight and those motherfuckers already see they're losing

 

[daniels27]

old mental pattern, wrong approach, freedom cannot be installed using force and coercion

Wait, what? I meant it hypottically. Like if we could go back to year 0 where there were no countries.

end of states must come from the bottom up by understanding it's economically more beneficial not to be a slave but self-reliant individual (which by no means implies that we cannot form our own higher level structures of individuals based on any incentives)

Yes, or maybe top down like from the UN? Jokes aside.

that's why bitcoin is bigger than the internet, it changes the rules of our so far futile fight and those motherfuckers already see they're losing

Motherfuckers lose by definition. The genes of their offspring are in bad shape and vulnerable to a plethora of conditions.

Bitcoin is an easy thing to win as it is virual money (similar to the ones that governments use to keep their prisoners listening to them).

organized crime entities (on the highest level called states) are the parasitic structures that evolved to feed on these reserves

there will always be malicious actors that will (try to) violate private property of others

Real world power is different. You cannot trade power on a blockchain to keep, it always is physical and the winner always takes it all. Think of all organised crime that ever existed. Most of them were defeated and very few of them fell apart from the inside (Roman empire, etc.). Now, there is an iteresting read, the UNABOMBER manifesto, which comes with two theses how the society is going to find its way to out of prisonhood. Which way do you think it will take and how do you think @void will help to prevent the same misery from happen again? What are the mechanisms that prevent malicious actors from amassing all the power again as the UN did?

 

[brianK]

Trade is a form of free cooperation that is (almost) unique to humans. One of the main functions of the state is to limit free trade.
When the state limits free trade, it disrupts the natural mechanisms that drive human growth, economic opportunity and innovation. When markets are let free to operate, people can pursue their passions and abilities to the fullest. This allows societies to progress naturally, as people collaborate, compete, and freely exchange ideas and goods. The freedom of the free market enables individuals to reach their full potential, and this organic process is what drives progress.
Therefore, the state is the main obstacle to human evolution and an aberration of nature.

You’ve summed it up very well; unfortunately, that’s how things work in this world.