I'm confused about corporate banking offshore.

[Yitzhak]

Hey guys,


I've spent months trying to find the answer to this question, and I've heard it go both ways, which I find confusing.


So I thought I would pose it here, to the experts, and see what happens.


Sometime this month, I plan on incorporating an offshore company as a holding company in Belize or Seychelles. I then need to open up an offshore bank account. I've found several banks that would provide the level of privacy that I want, and that's cool. What I'm confused about is who is legally considered the owner of the account? It doesn't make sense to me that it would be considered my personal account if it's registered to the holding company.


Ideally, my preferred setup would be to register the account to the holding company and set myself up as a signer, being an employee of the holding company. But they tell me that I would be the sole owner of the account? That can't be right.


Can someone please help me with some insight, as to how this is supposed to work?


All feedback is appreciated.


Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[JohnLocke]

If the bank account is opened in the name of the company you can't under no circumstance be the "sole owner" of the account. It's a corporate / business bank account you have opened then.


In the eyes of some tax authorities it can happen that they will try to make it look like's your personal bank account but most often they will fail terribly in their effort.


The issue is that you can't avoid to provide information to any offshore bank about your personal identity, this was possible for years ago but not today. There was a funny thread here on the forum for some time ago where people discuss to find a Mexican person to open the account this for a few dollars, but honestly this is not the way of doing things if you ask me

 

[Yitzhak]

Hire a Mexican! Lol. Or buy his passport! Ha! Classic. Suppose, by the same token, you could do some paper tripping off-shore. Documents would be fairly easy to come by in developing countries, especially if you happen to speak the language. But I imagine that too would also be needlessly dangerous.


Thank you for the insight. That's what I thought it was. I was talking to someone in Dubai about banks, and he was really trying to sell me on personal accounts. I don't mind revealing my identity, as an employee of my offshore company. That way, there's some degree of protection. Especially if there are other signers, and the whole thing is legitimate. A personal account for this, it just feels like the wrong solution.


I'm really digging this forum, by the way.


Thanks for all your help Admin.

 

[aage]

Where can we hire a Mexican to open a bank account? Is this safe?

 

[Yitzhak]

Personally? I would be more interested in his documents. Birth Certificate, National ID card, etc, than actually hiring the Mexican himself. The problem there is that you're putting money in someone else's name, and if he ever found out about it, he could take it... because, well, it doesn't really belong to you at that point. With a little research, you could probably find a dead illegal, that Mexico doesn't know is dead, and get a hold of his documentation. The problem there, is that if he has any family... you have the same problem that you had with the live Mexican. Although, if you want to go travelling on a dead guy's documents, I imagine you probably could. That would be interesting. You would have to learn to speak Spanish though.

 

[JohnLocke]

Just note that this is not allowed and if the bank finds out what is going on they will shut down the account.

 

[billywonder]

Personally? I would be more interested in his documents. Birth Certificate, National ID card, etc, than actually hiring the Mexican himself. The problem there is that you're putting money in someone else's name, and if he ever found out about it, he could take it... because, well, it doesn't really belong to you at that point. With a little research, you could probably find a dead illegal, that Mexico doesn't know is dead, and get a hold of his documentation. The problem there, is that if he has any family... you have the same problem that you had with the live Mexican. Although, if you want to go travelling on a dead guy's documents, I imagine you probably could. That would be interesting. You would have to learn to speak Spanish though.

Sorry for joining, but this seems to be a interesting conversation


So we have to travel to Mexico? I would assume we can find a interpreter to help me with the spanish language.

 

[billywonder]

Just note that this is not allowed and if the bank finds out what is going on they will shut down the account.

How should they find out?

 

[TVentures]

Dont do it. .. use a mexican that is...


As for 'owning a company' that is not going to happen unless barney fife structured your setup. In law there is a difference in being a 'Member' and an "Owner". Also, you should steer clear of ever being an employee. Why adopt more liability than you have to? It would be more proper and sufficient to be an 'Authorized Agent' for the corporation who is signatory. Some banks are moving towards the banking policy of requiring that signatories be a beneficial owner. This will be a sad day but easily avoidable. Until then find the bank that does not yet require that.


Also bank in a jurisdiction which requires the least amount of information to be a signatory. (Note: Do a quick study on banking law and the difference between 'Customer' and 'Signatory', this will alleviate your concerns of being presumed to be the "owner") So dont do Belize. Use some place like Guatemala. They have no tax treaties with the US or EU


Additionally as signatories are concerned, it does present a problem for some individuals from certain jurisidictions as they are mandated to report being a signer on a foreign account with a certain amount of account total. When this happens the way around this is the same answer for the 'beneficial owner' situation which is currently changing offshore banking. The answer to this is simple for the average and hard for the greedy. But whatever you do, do not do the homeless guy route. If for some reason, a Gestapo like agency were to every turn their spot light upon you, and the corporation or you could not present legal fact of the relationship between the signatory and the corporation would in fact cause determent to the purpose of being 'legit' as that agency would then began to fight the battle of proving "alter-ego"


You would be better of being the signatory and never reporting the truth of being a signer on such an account than attempting and only succeeding until some comes knocking. A proper jurisidiction which still maintains banking secrecy laws (for what they are worth) would go a long way. Think about it, as long as your structure was complete and correct, ideally a 'court order' for the information of a certain offshore corporation in a offshore banking jurisdiction would never happen. No matter whether you are doing it to funnel retired monies or monies from an active trade or business.

 

[billywonder]

You would be better of being the signatory and never reporting the truth of being a signer on such an account than attempting and only succeeding until some comes knocking. A proper jurisidiction which still maintains banking secrecy laws (for what they are worth) would go a long way. Think about it, as long as your structure was complete and correct, ideally a 'court order' for the information of a certain offshore corporation in a offshore banking jurisdiction would never happen. No matter whether you are doing it to funnel retired monies or monies from an active trade or business.

Thank you, seems you know your home work. What do you suggest I do, where to incorporate and open bank account?

 

[Yitzhak]

Dont do it. .. use a mexican that is...

Exactly. Dumb dumb dumb idea.

Also bank in a jurisdiction which requires the least amount of information to be a signatory. (Note: Do a quick study on banking law and the difference between 'Customer' and 'Signatory', this will alleviate your concerns of being presumed to be the "owner") So dont do Belize. Use some place like Guatemala. They have no tax treaties with the US or EU

Thank you so much! This is the piece I was missing.

 

[billywonder]

Exactly. Dumb dumb dumb idea.
Thank you so much! This is the piece I was missing.

hmmmm, do you mind to share what the missing piece was? I don't get it:target: Where are you going to open the bank account now?

 

[Yitzhak]

I was confused over the difference between customer and signatory, and I almost set up my entities wrong. I'm playing at a disadvantage, not being an expert on this yet. I'm great with code, though.

 

[Yitzhak]

Thinking Angora is actually the best place to open a bank account.

 

[JohnLocke]

If someone find's a bank where personal details are not a requirement please let us all know! I think they will be floated with new customers.

 

[Yitzhak]

My research is telling me that you can actually open a private numbered account there. The biggest problem with the banks there is that you have to actually set foot in the country, and talk to a banker. But it's not that far from Israel, and it would give me an excuse to visit with family.

 

[JohnLocke]

My research is telling me that you can actually open a private numbered account there. The biggest problem with the banks there is that you have to actually set foot in the country, and talk to a banker. But it's not that far from Israel, and it would give me an excuse to visit with family.

Sounds really interesting, do you have some name of this bank or do you mean them all? Wonder how they will prevent certain issues with International laws i.e. Patriot Act and similar if they don't require personal information on record. But as I say, very interesting I hope you will share the information and take the time to post here once you know more.

 

[Yitzhak]

Just sent an email with more information to the webmaster address.

 

[JohnLocke]

Thank you for the e-mail got it, also send you a reply.

 

[TVentures]

My research is telling me that you can actually open a private numbered account there. The biggest problem with the banks there is that you have to actually set foot in the country, and talk to a banker. But it's not that far from Israel, and it would give me an excuse to visit with family.

Numbered accounts are rarely understood. The banks still collects all the same information but instead of broadcasting the Customer name and Signatory name in the SWIFT code, it instead only does numbers. And a number is assigned to the account after opening so that all future references to an account only used by the number. The exact same as any brick and mortar bank, except they they broadcast as much information in transaction codes.


This is irrelevant and a waste of money. Just pick a bank which 'only' broadcasts the name of the customer and not the signatory. The various Gestapo tax agencies of the world "google" names by looking at the SWIFT code. If a proper structure is playing the rules correctly it will not matter that the Customer name appears because no agency has any reason to investigate it.


Even if a TIEA agreement on a offshore jurisdiction does not cover your originating jurisdiction does not justify a selection. If that offshore situs has 20 agreements and your country is not listed yet, it will soon be there. Here is a list.


Andorra - 20 TIEA. As of this time no Canada, US, or UK


Anguilla - 17 TIEA. Includes Canada, UK, but not US yet.


Bahamas - 29 TIEA. Includes Canada, US, and UK


Belize - 15 TIEA. Includes UK, but not US or Canada yet.


Cook Islands - 16 TIEA. As of this time no US, Canada, or UK


Guatemala - 11 IEA. No US, Canada, or UK


Guernsey - 35 TIEA. Includes US, Canada, and UK


Hong Kong - 25 TIEA. No Canada, US, or UK


Isle of Man - 25 TIEA. Includes Canada, US, and UK


Jersey - 28 TIEA. Includes Canada, US, and UK


Lichtenstein - 21 TIEA. Includes US, UK, but not Canada


Lexembourg - 69 TIEA. ALOT! Includes Canada, US, UK


Monaco - 21 TIEA. As of this time none with Canada or Uk, but yes to US


Panama - Dont Do It!


Nevis / St. Kitts - 21 TIEA. Includes UK and Canada, but not with US


Saint Vincent Grenadines - 31 TIEA. Includes Canada, UK, but not US


San Marino - 26 TIEA. Includes Canada and UK but not US


Seychelles - 9 TIEA. None with US, Canada, or UK. African jurisdiction and not suggested as banking location, entities yes, banking no. Much financial risk.


Singapore - 70 TIEA. Includes Canada, UK, but none with US. They do not open bank accounts for US persons


Switzerland - 95 TIEA. Includes Canada, US, and UK


It should pretty clear now why so many flock to "popular tax havens" and how so many of them when the spot light does get turned on end up in a world of hurt. They dont do their research, and the yahoo who formed their structure punched out a template and did not care for the long term safety of the client, and MOST important, very few, if any, actually learn the various laws applicable to ensuring a structure performs accordingly.