If not having money in crypto, then in what?

[OKboomer]

Physical gold (kept outside the registered deposit boxes).

Some very specific and well chosen real estate investments spread around the world.

Nothing else makes sense to me right now. Waiting for the big selloff once it crashes.

On gold, what do you mean? Having your own safe at home? What are the problems with registered safety deposit boxes? (apart from identifying you for the bank obviously)

On real estate, buy to let, or buy to hold for later resale? I wrote about issues with both these approaches nowadays. Generally, most major international cities worldwide are also close to their peak values in property. A lot of cities also introduce a lot of onerous taxes on empty apartments, or apartments owned via offshore structures (even if the owner is NOT living in the said country). Luxury property has additional tax burdens in quite a few countries.

On selloff, waiting for it as well, but actually the question is also important. When s**t goes down, if you have money in the bank, it may also go down. If you have money in cash or gold or crypto, then when trying to deposit it into bank finally to buy those dirt-cheap assets when prices do collapse, AML-related questions may start popping up, etc. It's not like you can snatch discounted real estate or stocks with hard cash, gold or crypto

 

[Martin Everson]

What are the problems with registered safety deposit boxes? (apart from identifying you for the bank obviously)

If box is in EU its a major problem from January 2020 under the EU 5th AML Directive. They can confiscate it and will do so in a real crisis.

5AMLD is very much about ‘know your business’ as the EU cracks down on companies used as a front for money laundering. While regulated businesses are obliged to perform checks on their customers for KYC purposes, they will need to implement checks on the businesses they trade with too.

This requires EU member states to set up a national register of beneficial ownership information on businesses, including trusts and holders of safe-deposit boxes, to share with other members.

 

[Clip]

If box is in EU its a major problem from January 2020 under the EU 5th AML Directive. You might as well give your gold to government to hold for you

Next step is what? Putting a GPS to every single Euro note?

 

[Martin Everson]

Next step is what? Putting a GPS to every single Euro note?

Passive RFID's inbuilt into the next generation Euro bank notes is what your looking for. I wouldn't put it past the EU. It will be worse than blockchain technology for tracking.

 

[moneyhoney]

On gold, what do you mean? Having your own safe at home? What are the problems with registered safety deposit boxes? (apart from identifying you for the bank obviously)

Personally I love a solution like BullionStar SG (you can buy online, even with bitcoin, or in the store, even with no-limit cash!), cause they don't perform any KYC, 0 taxes and SG has a strong reputation for respecting the private property.

Some people, and I do understand it, prefer to have the physical gold close to them but.. this way can be confiscated if they are really after you (either coming to your home or checking the safe with your name on it. In some countries they have a register to check how many times you go to visit your safe, just to understand the level of lack of privacy). This cannot happen with the SG solution. BTW this is personal, it depends on your situation. (and yes, as some reported, it won't be easy to buy gold in Europe without leaving a track, nearly impossible in most of the countries even before the new 2020 rules).

 

[moneyhoney]

Keeping funds in stablecoin is not very safe either, we saw the murky things with bitfinex, Tether and the supposed funds entrusted to Crypto Capital Corp Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

It would be great to be able to keep our mayor assets in a decentralized system, but I believe that there is not yet a secure enough solution at this time without being exposed to the volatility of all crypto or the bad management of stablecoins.

Yes, this is debatable. Not sure too about the safety of stablecoins but I do like to keep some of them on a hardware wallet.

What do you use to change BTC with for instance USDT? The only one I found with no KYC is ChangeNOW (but quite expensive) and I know the other option would be Bisq even if I didn't try yet.

 

[Elve]

What do you use to change BTC with for instance USDT? The only one I found with no KYC is ChangeNOW (but quite expensive) and I know the other option would be Bisq even if I didn't try yet.

changelly.com is cheaper than changenow.

But it is better to use P2P crypto exchanges that KYC is not needed while you do not exchange with fiat.

For example in kraken the limits without providing documents are:

Deposit digital asset: Unlimited
Withdraw digital asset: $ 5,000 daily / Unlimited monthly

 

[Untangle]

I am confused by your post OP.
There are many opportunities out there other than crypto.

Many companies keep having their shares growing and growing years after years, 10 or 20 years straight.
Same with many commodities.
Gold alone has grown 350+% in the past 20 years.

In some countries in Europe there are 0 tax on gold purchase and sale. They don't even ask you for an ID when buying your gold. They give you cash.

Of course you don't buy Gold on eBay :-(

You go to reputable dealers where Premium is only 2-3% compared to official gold price. Same when selling, they will buy it 2-3% below market price.

Other metals, now more expensive than gold, have a much higher growth rate compared to Gold.

As for real estate, hard to beat, really. In Luxembourg alone, since the last 10 years properties have doubled in value.
Yes you need to be in big Cities, yes it is more expensive.

Do your research, I think you are missing that, it really transpires in your post, and you will discover there are so much more out there and plenty of opportunities.

But don't look for a quick buck. Not gonna happen. Rich people have built their portfolio over the years (Unless they were born into it like some).

Hard work and research is what they all did.

 

[moneyhoney]

changelly.com is cheaper than changenow.

As far as I know now Changelly has the KYC process and they easily freeze your assents.

About Kraken sounds interesting, I thought the KYC was necessary for all kinds of transactions.

 

[Stefano3323]

Personally I love a solution like BullionStar SG (you can buy online, even with bitcoin, or in the store, even with no-limit cash!), cause they don't perform any KYC, 0 taxes and SG has a strong reputation for respecting the private property.

Been using Bullion for years and it is very good. You can deposit and sell whenever you want and get withdraw back in BTC.

Other options could be to convert the BTC and other cryptos in stablecoins and just use services to get annual returns, you get easily 6% p.a., use some of them just to keep the risk low in case one or two closed down. Also you could consider investing in startups via equity crowdfunding. Yes, way higher risk, but it's an option that was not mentioned so thought of adding it.

 

[Spinat]

Passive RFID's inbuilt into the next generation Euro bank notes is what your looking for

You know a lot have said that before and say it again. But what exactly is this?

 

[Martin Everson]

You know a lot have said that before and say it again. But what exactly is this?

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/technology-article.asp?artnum=47
Now imagine trying to go through airport with cash or police searching your home or business for cash. They will know exactly how much money you have on you in a street search even as each banknote will report itself to the scanning device .

Also you could consider investing in startups via equity crowdfunding.

That's a good idea if you can get the investment right like this jailed professor did. However evading taxes like he did was stupid as hell.

http://acrossthefader.biz/archives/23170

 

[Clip]

They will know exactly how much money you have on you in a street search even as each banknote will report itself to the scanning device

And meanwhile they keep increasing taxes in Europe until the 95%

 

[GrumpyMess]

Personally I love a solution like BullionStar SG (you can buy online, even with bitcoin, or in the store, even with no-limit cash!), cause they don't perform any KYC, 0 taxes and SG has a strong reputation for respecting the private property.

Interesting solution at the moment, they can start performing KYC and AML checks in the future, but it seems now it can be used. How to cash out such gold bars in SG or outside the country without loosing a lot of interest?

and just use services to get annual returns, you get easily 6% p.a

What services are you referring to?

 

[JohnSpain]

Ownership is the key to building assets and securing assets. The billionaires of the world are not holding bitcoins (other than for fun). They might hold gold to diversify, but their wealth come from owning businesses and real estate. The challenge right now is that stocks are to expensive, the same goes for real estate. But you can look up great projects on crowd funding websites, some of these will represent a good opportunity for growth. I will for example shortly raise money for a new online booking business were early investors get a very good deal. Two companies control 95% of the online hotel booking market, this mean there is a huge opportunity to challenge them. Take 1% of the booking market and you have a business worth €500 million. Thousands of other projects are doing similar things, they find sectors where there is no real competition and challenge the old players. Find a sector and a company you like and support a business that can make some real change. There is risk of course, and a potential 10 000% return even in a shitty stock market (which we will face soon).

 

[Educate]

Banks, those few who will tolerate this at all, will pretty much force you to buy stocks or some other s**t that, frankly, is in a worse bubble than Bitcoin.

No, they aren't. Equities are an excellent investment, despite majority of people and sheeple crying doom&gloom.

We are on the verge of a massive downturn so buying stocks now (mid- or long-term) is IMO stupid.

Really? What is your experience that makes you believe so? Because it is going up it must come down?

So the question really remains, if not having money in crypto, then in what?

VT world stock index, preferably in an accumulating and distributing fund. Literally that's it.

Nothing else makes sense to me right now. Waiting for the big selloff once it crashes.

EVERYONE is waiting for "the big sell off" and that is EXACTLY the reason why it won't happen. Doom&Gloomers scream this everyday. LOL @ people who think they can time markets. Stock market is up majority of the time, thus it is a good long term investment with positive EV (dividends included). If you are not buying now, because "it's at it's peak" you are making rookie mistake of market timing and will miss out. Historically stock market has been "at its peak" most of the time, since it keeps going up due to overall humanity productivity growth. With AI and automation humanity gets MORE PRODUCTIVE not LESS and POP growth is currently rising as well. Put 2+2 together. But yeah, I get it, you will be the one who will time the bottom of next recession right LOL!

 

[KJK]

Many companies keep having their shares growing and growing years after years, 10 or 20 years straight.
Same with many commodities.
Gold alone has grown 350+% in the past 20 years.

In some countries in Europe there are 0 tax on gold purchase and sale. They don't even ask you for an ID when buying your gold. They give you cash.
(...)
Other metals, now more expensive than gold, have a much higher growth rate compared to Gold.
(...)
As for real estate, hard to beat, really. In Luxembourg alone, since the last 10 years properties have doubled in value.
Yes you need to be in big Cities, yes it is more expensive.

I partially agree but it may be dangerous to live in an illusion that "things will just go up". Yes of course that is the trend. However, what is the real reason behind the trend? Is it companies becoming bigger and bigger and more and more productive? Or is it just a result of cheap money? If you are an European company and you can borrow money at 1% or even 0.5%, you simply do it, increase the debt and then do some dumb acquisition or simply buy-back shares. Share price will increase but what does that mean? It is a game of musical chairs. You must know when to get out.

Real estate again is a consequence of the current monetary system. When people have money, they put it into residential real estate and think they are geniuses.

However, imagine a scenario similar to Japan in the past 30-40 years. The economy went up, up,up... and then it stopped; nothing helped an extremely long period of stagnation followed, so called "lost generation" lived through it. Japanese companies are 1) sitting on cash and 2) owned by the central bank of Japan.

Ownership is the key to building assets and securing assets. The billionaires of the world are not holding bitcoins (other than for fun). They might hold gold to diversify, but their wealth come from owning businesses and real estate. The challenge right now is that stocks are to expensive, the same goes for real estate. But you can look up great projects on crowd funding websites, some of these will represent a good opportunity for growth. I will for example shortly raise money for a new online booking business were early investors get a very good deal. Two companies control 95% of the online hotel booking market, this mean there is a huge opportunity to challenge them. Take 1% of the booking market and you have a business worth €500 million. Thousands of other projects are doing similar things, they find sectors where there is no real competition and challenge the old players. Find a sector and a company you like and support a business that can make some real change. There is risk of course, and a potential 10 000% return even in a shitty stock market (which we will face soon).

Crowdfunding is a bit like gambling - but after all, venture capital is also a bit like gambling. I don't see a lot of successes yet on crowdfunding sites. Yes, you could've bought Revolut shares on Seedrs which became a 20x bagger - and you could've bought 200 other projects on Seedrs which are either struggling or they quietly stopped operating.

 

[Educate]

Is it companies becoming bigger and bigger and more and more productive? Or is it just a result of cheap money?

Well, if it is not productivity growth (which it largely is) and money inflation and "cheap money" instead then you would EVEN MORE want to hold stocks and not the cheap inflationary money, wouldn't you?

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/27/the-inspiring-story-of-the-worst-market-timer-ever.htmlCheck this story for anyone bashing stocks as a solid long term investment.

 

[JohnSeed]

Passive RFID's inbuilt into the next generation Euro bank notes is what your looking for. I wouldn't put it past the EU. It will be worse than blockchain technology for tracking.

That is the future, maybe in 10 years or so but not yet or did you hear rumours that this is something they already consider to do?

 

[KJK]

Well, if it is not productivity growth (which it largely is) and money inflation and "cheap money" instead then you would EVEN MORE want to hold stocks and not the cheap inflationary money, wouldn't you?

Theoretically yes - however, also keep in mind this is what literally everyone is doing to "invest". You will read these advisors telling you to put it into SPY (ETF tracking 500 largest American companies), maybe combine with TLT (American bonds) and you're all set.

Holding cash is dumb but holding large-cap US stocks which everyone else holds isn't much smarter... You have to look at places where others aren't looking - e.g. why have been emerging markets depressed for the last 20 years, same for commodities, why everyone hates certain countries etc etc. Do your research and find an undervalued niche.

The VTI you mentioned is 99.92% exposure to United States large cap equities (plus 0.08% Canada), why exactly is that a great idea?

The example article you posted has the flaw that I already mentioned two times here - it assumes that the market (US market specifically) just goes up, up and up. It elegantly chooses the time period to start in 1973. As I already wrote, imagine a Japan scenario of 30 or 40 years of stagnation (money supply increases, central bank keeps buying assets...) - on paper you will be richer but it won't help you much.

_________________________
Speaking of attaching RFID chips to euronotes, it is a funny thought but I wouldn't be surprised it that is actual reality in 2050. After all, with 5G and internet of things, it wouldn't even need to be that expensive.

Even the current state of things is scary - for example there is a new thing called "eKasa" in Slovakia. This system is mandatory for basically the entire country and sends all data about every transaction, both card and cash transactions, to a centralized government-operated database. All details are sent including the GPS location of the transaction; name and price of the items bought; sometimes it even includes buyer's identification.

Of course the official explanation is that everything is secured and cannot be abused. However all you need is a change of regime - or maybe not even that, all you need is one corrupt government employee or a subpoena - and your entire buying history, your movement and behaviour can be perfectly analyzes. Even if you used cash, your transactions in shops are logged and centralized now.