I can't prove the origin of my bitcoins, problems with Spanish Ministry of Finance

[Josevbtc]

Do not create fake invoices, it is a stupid idea and honestly you do not need it.



Well, is something blocking you from moving to Portugal? Cut ties with Spain, move, solve your things, only then sell your crypto.



So your goal in life is to buy a cheap house in some Spanish 2nd-tier town and live with no job?



These "guys on telegram" are either retards or scammers, or both. Banks in Switzerland care A LOT about source of funds, pretty sure they care more than your local Spanish bank.

Also as of 2020 it makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE for you (as Spanish guy&resident) whether you bank in Spain or in Switzerland. Swiss bank will be more expensive and won't offer you absolutely anything extra, does not change your tax liability, does not hide your money. Sure there are some crypto-friendly banks (Frick, Falcon...) but they mostly deal with 1M+ or 10M+. Educate yourself and learn that no such thing as "bank secrecy" exists nowadays in Europe, Switzerland is very compliant and exchanging all information.

Yes I was reading about fake invoices and it seems a bad idea... I dont want to go to jail.

My goal in life is not to be rich and do anything, BUT, if I become rich, I buy a house and I have no job but I have money, I can start some projets and be happy, and sleep a lot!... And not be worried about money or jobs.

About Switzerland I know they care about source of money, but maybe they dont care too much about bitcoin? I really dont know... Anyway MAYBE I could have problems if my bitcoin is money from drugs, and they dont care if my bitcoin come from a facebook seller, my bitcoins is 100% legal but I can not prove how I bought them... I really dont know, but some advisors (at least 3 of them) always talk about Switzerland when I tell them about bitcoin.

If I was in your skin, I would try to buy gold in Bullion star in singapore. They accept bitcoins. They can send you the gold where you want. In part when you resell your gold, you will have a prove of your founds. You can send your gold to switzerland, and there, you can keep it in a bank or in a special deposit. It's no very complicate to find it. You open an account in Suisse and you deposit the amount of your gold.
Forget to buy now a flat in Spain. It's a very bad country in this moment for that. It's a comunist country.
Buy or perhaps better rent a flat in Portugal. After 2 or 3 years if you see that Portugal are good for you, you can try to buy.

Some people told me I can buy gold in Honk Kong... But I am not sure about that, I need to learn a bit more about how to do...

About Spain, yes, is a shitty country I know, but I live here! Its my country, my friends and family are here, and I would like to live here forever. I want to be here and I want to buy a house, maybe is not smart but I want to do that. And we are not communist lol... Government is socialist right now but dont worry I think we will see a new government next years.

I agree with KJK. As someone that banks in Switzerland it is a waste of time in 2020 and an expensive exercise in dealing with the pedantic Swiss nature of banking. Swiss banks offer nothing of value today...not stability not anything sadly. UBS was bailed out by government during last crisis and CS had to beg for arab money from to prevent also being bailed out...that says it all .



Have you ever owned a house before and dealt with running costs? If you have done your maths then yes you can live happily ever after. If not that house will become a mill stone around your neck and a money pit.

Well some advisors talk about Switzerland, I really dont know why, maybe is easy for my problem, to prove origin of my bitcoin... At least they told me that.

I never bought a house but running cost and taxes are low, I can buy a housee for 200.000 euro, or I can rent it for 600.000 euros 40/50 years. So I think buy a house is a good idea... Anyway you can not rent houses here, nobody do that, you can rent apartments but is not easy to found house for rent... This is Spain, rent is only popular on young people, and young people can not rent houses.




Thank you again guys!

 

[Georgiabus]

Have you ever thinking on a private bank in Georgia , as SoloBank is Crypto Currency friendly...

 

[jscargo]

Let's say the house you want to buy is 300k EUR....
Let's say you opt for paying capital gains tax in spain at around 20% = 60k.
The other option, cutting ties with Spain firstly, moving to Portugal, staying there for at least 6 months, withdrawing the money, finding the house, buying the house, returning to Spain. This would probably take a year, and at least some 30k if you want to live with dignity.
If you plan to return to Spain immediately after getting the house, it is financially flawed imo or the house value has to cost at least 1 mil.

 

[Aten]

That is a good point. Moving has its own expenses. Just pay taxes for the house and live with peace of mind. Maintenance of house is something everyone on planet pays and its very extreme to try avoiding it.

 

[alex777]

What I know about buying property in Spain from my past experience.
You need to have money in a bank account in a Spanish bank.
The Spanish bank is very strict now, especially regarding transfers from outside the EU.
They freeze incoming transfer and ask for sources of money. Then you explain and show some supporting documents, then they may ask for more documents and more. It can take several weeks to satisfy the complaint department. You need to prepared to make the source of money for bank simple that possible. Becouse In my case it's look like they don't have enogh knowledge or simple overload.

And according the Spanish law, resident of Spain must declare all assets including bank accounts that they have outside of Spain (Modela 720).

And like in many other EU countries according AML law the banks, lawyers, notary obliged to report you to autority if they saw some "suspiciouse".

I wish you have that you want.
Just be careful.

 

[Spinat]

Have you ever thinking on a private bank in Georgia , as SoloBank is Crypto Currency friendly...

How do you open an account there, remote or need an introducer and what are the requirements?

Yes I was reading about fake invoices and it seems a bad idea... I dont want to go to jail.

agree very much with you. However, you could simply get a invoice from someone that has companies around the globe and don't care to get you that over. Really hard for any government to proof it's not real.

@Martin Everson as someone very knowledge about banking (120 accounts say a lot) I would think Switzerland was one of your 1st stop destinations for banking. What is more reliable then Swiss banks if you have money in there? I'm curious?

OP are you willing to relocate in order to get your crypto to fiat and live in a place where you have no tax to pay?

 

[Martin Everson]

@Martin Everson as someone very knowledge about banking (120 accounts say a lot) I would think Switzerland was one of your 1st stop destinations for banking. What is more reliable then Swiss banks if you have money in there? I'm curious?

Avoid Switzerland if you have a weak source of funds. The banks do not play in 2020 in allowing clients with poor source of funds in.

OP are you willing to relocate in order to get your crypto to fiat and live in a place where you have no tax to pay?

That would be a good option as long as his crypto is worth less than 4m euros. Otherwise he will need to pay Spanish exit tax on the unrealized gains in his crypto if taxman finds he has assets in his new country which it can discover if a DTA exists with new country.

 

[KJK]

Avoid Switzerland if you have a weak source of funds. The banks do not play in 2020 in allowing clients with poor source of funds in.

Good reference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7lu6ze

 

[SaintVince]

OP must be a very knowledgeable person if he bought btc in 2014 at lets say $400/btc. And let’s assume that the current price is $10,000/btc so he increased the investment 25 fold.

if he sells now and gets $500,000 it means that the original investment was $20,000.

i don’t think in 2014, I would have sent some guy $20,000 cash to buy some crypto currency.

let us know how you cash it.

if you can at least explain where you got the original $20,000 then you can start there. Showing btc growth is easy. This way you can prove the source of funds.
you just need a printout or the transactions from your wallet I.e. 20,000 in btc credit in 2014. 500,000 in btc debit in 2020.

 

[nomad999]

Are you crazy to sell btc now ? didn't you noticed the s**t show going on in the global economy ? Bitcoin is going to increase massively in value within the next few years.
Also, buying a house, what for ? To pay taxes forever and be a slave like everyone else in a communist country ?

Seriously right now is not a good time to sell, wait a year or two and you will have your millions, probably more given the amount of money that is going to be printed by the central banks now that s**t has hit the fan.

 

[Josevbtc]

Good reference:

I really enjoyed your two articles on reddit. I would like the advisors I have consulted knew as many things as you! I have written you a private message on Reddit, I hope you can answer me.

Are you crazy to sell btc now ? didn't you noticed the s**t show going on in the global economy ? Bitcoin is going to increase massively in value within the next few years.
Also, buying a house, what for ? To pay taxes forever and be a slave like everyone else in a communist country ?

Seriously right now is not a good time to sell, wait a year or two and you will have your millions, probably more given the amount of money that is going to be printed by the central banks now that s**t has hit the fan.

Lol, I know! I am not selling now! I will wait (maybe 2 years or so?) for a good price, I hope to see 50k or 100k... But I know is time to get some info about what to do in the future, I want to be ready!.



Thank you all guys for your answers. I have read all your comments, excuse me if I do not answer all ... It is difficult for me to write in English, it takes a long time.

 

[Martin Everson]

Are you crazy to sell btc now ? didn't you noticed the s**t show going on in the global economy ? Bitcoin is going to increase massively in value within the next few years.

Hope your right as BTC its down 21% today as I type and during corona virus outbreak and financial market turmoil . Not a good time to sell in any case.

 

[dissident]

You can spend it with a good level of privacy by using debit cards connected to your Bitcoin wallet. Coinbase Card is a reliable service, but they have a strong KYC process that might eventually expose you in the future if they are enforced to share information with EU tax authorities, as they currently do with the IRS in US. You can find on Google "crypto debit card" and you will find different provides, but I'd suggest to conduct a full research before putting large sums there.

If you want to avoid high tax burden, you should move your tax residency to a less socialist country. Andorra is the closest, but the process to move there is not cheap and takes some time.

My advice, assuming you have a generous 6 figures amount equivalent in BTC, you can spend that money in small amounts (1500€-3000€) on a monthly basis using different debit cards providers as suggested before, even using multiple accounts is advisable under different persons (family, close friends...), so you will not have a single point of failure in case they suspect about your account activity or report your cash movement to local tax authorities, that might eventually share record with Spanish socialist tax authorities due to AEOI/CRS bulls**t regulations (however, this is unlike because they don't have to comply with bank financial regulations, just electronic money license, which does not share much info).

Good luck with the crypto spending

 

[void]

You can spend it with a good level of privacy by using debit cards connected to your Bitcoin wallet. Coinbase Card is a reliable service, but they have a strong KYC process that might eventually expose you in the future if they are enforced to share information with EU tax authorities, as they currently do with the IRS in US. You can find on Google "crypto debit card" and you will find different provides, but I'd suggest to conduct a full research before putting large sums there.

If you want to avoid high tax burden, you should move your tax residency to a less socialist country. Andorra is the closest, but the process to move there is not cheap and takes some time.

My advice, assuming you have a generous 6 figures amount equivalent in BTC, you can spend that money in small amounts (1500€-3000€) on a monthly basis using different debit cards providers as suggested before, even using multiple accounts is advisable under different persons (family, close friends...), so you will not have a single point of failure in case they suspect about your account activity or report your cash movement to local tax authorities, that might eventually share record with Spanish socialist tax authorities due to AEOI/CRS bulls**t regulations (however, this is unlike because they don't have to comply with bank financial regulations, just electronic money license, which does not share much info).

Good luck with the crypto spending

nice advice... but what is he supposed to spend for? 6 figures by card, hmm

 

[dissident]

nice advice... but what is he supposed to spend for? 6 figures by card, hmm

Why not?
Let's say using 4 different person BTC debit card accounts, each spending 600€-700€ per month = 2400€-2800€ total spending per month in order to cover one person life expenses.
That during 5-10 years, about ~156,000€ - 312,000€ respectively in total spending, all without triggering alarms and with good level of privacy/anonymity/untraceability.

Not to mention the very likely BTC price increase against fiat in the upcoming years.
With a bit of luck, the guy might fund its long-term life that way with a modest, low-profile, but still comfortable, life style.

 

[void]

exactly... 5-10 years :-D
it doesn't look like a solution for exit to me
if BTC price will grow then the "problem" will grow too
if BTC price will go down then he lost his money because he was unable to exit the position
either way he can't buy anything serious using this money

 

[dissident]

exactly... 5-10 years :-D
it doesn't look like a solution for exit to me
if BTC price will grow then the "problem" will grow too
if BTC price will go down then he lost his money because he was unable to exit the position
either way he can't buy anything serious using this money

I don't see the big deal here.
You can move funds into stable coin (USDT, USDC...) if price volatility is your major fear, which I don't believe it's the case since he waited 6 years to withdraw funds, including waiting during the crazy 2017-2018 bull run.

Anyway, it's very unlikely BTC will fall to $100 or $1000. Even if all governments try ban or prosecute it, which will turn the world into very totalitarian regimes and I'm sure society will have bigger freedom issues than just BTC ban lol, the dark market will still be alive, and while major drugs are illegal, dark money will always be there, some of it using crypto to protect and move assets, and there is no fucking way any gov can fully avoid this. It's logistically and financially impossible to control since the technology is decentralized and anyone with electrify and hardware can run it with a high degree of confidentiality.

You can also buy real state in different jurisdictions with crypto. It might be a bit tricky initially and require some paperwork, but it's perfectly doable and I know people who did it legally after launching a successful ERC20 ICO.

 

[Helkins]

I honestly don't understand you all here, you focus on the personal tax obligations instead of suggesting a corporate solution. You currently have your assets in BTC which aren't connected to your name, create or buy an offshore company in no reporting jurisdiction where crypto is positively or neutrality seen, move the BTC to bank account over the period of time and for the sake of bank knowledge have invoices or contracts proving crypto consultation for a BTC fee, open an EU company and loan the money to it from the offshore one, using the EU company purchase the property in Spain and you're good. You should use nominees in the EU as you might have reporting obligations as a Spanish citizen.

 

[Martin Everson]

honestly don't understand you all here, you focus on the personal tax obligations instead of suggesting a corporate solution. You currently have your assets in BTC which aren't connected to your name, create or buy an offshore company in no reporting jurisdiction where crypto is positively or neutrality seen, move the BTC to bank account over the period of time and for the sake of bank knowledge have invoices or contracts proving crypto consultation for a BTC fee, open an EU company and loan the money to it from the offshore one, using the EU company purchase the property in Spain and you're good. You should use nominees in the EU as you might have reporting obligations as a Spanish citizen.

You haven't obviously thought this through. Crypto, offshore company, dodgy invoices, EU company with nominees and a sham corporate loan to purchase real estate. What could possibly go wrong I wonder .

 

[Helkins]

You haven't obviously thought this through. Crypto, offshore company, dodgy invoices, EU company with nominees and a sham corporate loan to purchase real estate. What could possibly go wrong I wonder .

Dear friend, I might've left out some details but the general concept stays the same, some adjustments could be made and updated for the current laws. I've been doing many schemes for the past 15 years and own a couple of properties in EU and we haven't had larger issues, one of which is in Marbella so it very much works/ed for Spain. I'm not telling him to make everything dodgy and fake, use your wit and make it look like a legitimate aged business venture from which you could perhaps even earn some money.