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How do I buy properties in Spain when residing in Spain with a Hong Kong company
- Thread starter thom038
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welcome to spain
That is also part of the culture here and how it works.
However, this is something which one can arrange oneself with. the horrible bureaucracy on the other hand not so much.
Same goes for latin america, but there oftentimes the bureaucracy is easier than spain as well as tax, at least in the selected few places.
Working as an employee for the company would probably be more complex and more expensive, as the company would be probably paying you social security expenses in HK, but I'm just guessing, I have no idea how this works, it depends how HK regulate this.
Invoicing would be more simple, as it would be an expense for the company and it would be taxed as is in spain. From what I know in Spain you have to pay a "cuota de autonomo" which is reduced for the first two years, and then you pay taxes based on your income, with some deductions. So if you invoice 3k € each month you will pay taxes on 36k € at the end of year in spain ( and 36k less taxes in HK as they are expenses ) + the cuota ( as an autonomo you have to pay the cuota even if you don't make money ). How to optimize taxes in spain as an autonomo is something you can ask a Gestoria, it's something they should know, or I have some contacts that have been given me by spanish friends, ping me a DM if you need them. You also get the rights to a pension after 15 years. The good thing about being an autonomo is that you can boost (your earnings in case you need to, like to get a loan, and then go back lower the next year, which is something more complex to do as an employee.
If you go this way and keep any relationship with the HK company hidden, do make sure the swiss bank account of your company doesn't report you to spain as beneficiary owner, you should be ok, and also solve the issue of not paying taxes anywhere, which could get you in trouble in the long run.
With 15 years you only will get 226€/month. After 25 years you will get 561€/month and after 36 years you will be paid 789€. All that of a basis of a minimum cuota declared 944,40€. Over this base you will pay the x 28,30% = 267,26 euros. Over the maximal basis that you can declare 4.070,10€ you will pay 1.233,21€/month
everyone is free to commit suicide as they prefer.
.. You have all the elements to receive tomorrow from Hacienda congratulatory letter
. Bravo ... bravisimo.... If you buy real estate you will have all the lottery numbers.other error. You do not have to seek advice in a Gestoria (the gestorias don't know nothing about fiscality planing. They are not tax advisers). You must to go to an spanish senior expert tax attorney (fiscalista). You have to scratch your pocket even if you don't want to accept it. Saving this money may mean that you have to pay a lot more. And remember that you have to approach your lawyer on the problem saying that you want to opt for a solution to regularize your situation that due to ignorance you have not complied with. The "gestores", as well as the tax advisers, have the obligation from 01/01/21 to inform the tax office about all clients who make inquiries about ways to evade the treasury or to hide information from the treasury (Hacienda). This OECD regulation is called DAC06. Inform yourself well. Your account in Switzerland will be reported to the tax office where you are resident and in this case if you have a NIE and are registered ("empadronado") in Spain, you will be reported to Spanish Hacienda through the CRS. There is no doubt about this. You are the UBO of an HK company, but the UBO is the reported one. And Spain I will take into account that the decisions of the HK company are made from Spain, which is why your HK company will consider as an extension of the Spanish territory.
And so far the good news.
So if you persist in your idea to buy a flat, welcome to Spain and welcome as fantastic Hacienda's investor. Spain need people like you to pay taxes
Bienvenido
What is the sweet spot from this standpoint?
So what difference does it make to go to a fiscalista? I had suggested above that the gestoria would be the first to report you, but didn't know it was official it was only a gut feeling
Sure, you go to a fiscalista saying that you want to redeem yourself, and you get an investigation immediately. Not a good start.
I think that in the original poster case, the best thing would be to do nothing and pretend not to exist in Spain: pay rent in cash, be empadroniato as a friend, no spanish bank accounts and so on, especially given the fact that the bank in Switzerland might be reporting, although it depends on how the UK company is set up. There is also cfc, but I think in spain if you control a company that has less than 25% of passive income, it doesn't enter into cfc laws. And his HK company has substance in HK, so it would be complex to demonstrate that the company is run from spain, he might be the BO but the company might be run from HK. Sure, if you buy a house in Spain, the Hacienda will have good reason to start an investigation, especially if the house is worth $$$
I still think that Dubai is the best option here
Hey, here a Spanish lawyer!
I've read the whole thread and I think that it is really going to be very difficult to escape from the clutches of the "Tax Agency".
Tax optimization ways can be examined to pay less, but do not intend to buy a house in Spain through a company in HK of which (I suppose) you hold at least 25% of the share capital and pretend that the Treasury ignores it.
I repeat, there are always ways to reduce taxes and the first thing that occurs to me would be to set up a company in Spain, ask for a loan from the company in HK and with that money buy the house. It would be a good way to save costs.
But everything has to be studied.
All the best
I've read the whole thread and I think that it is really going to be very difficult to escape from the clutches of the "Tax Agency".
Tax optimization ways can be examined to pay less, but do not intend to buy a house in Spain through a company in HK of which (I suppose) you hold at least 25% of the share capital and pretend that the Treasury ignores it.
I repeat, there are always ways to reduce taxes and the first thing that occurs to me would be to set up a company in Spain, ask for a loan from the company in HK and with that money buy the house. It would be a good way to save costs.
But everything has to be studied.
All the best
Sorry for my late reply, I have been going back and forth with Advisors and Gestorias, from what i´ve heard it would be much better to buy a property private with a mortgage from the bank. I just opened a Spanish bank account which i will send myself salary + commission as an employee from the company in HK. And one gestoria told me it´s possible to receive a ´loan´ from the company which will be paid back in salary / commission on a monthly basis. This means i can lower my salary in order to pay back the loon. This has to be done with air tight contract.
Hello wie7se,
I am registered as a resident in Spain and hold a N.I.E number which is basically a BSN number in NL.
Buying a property in Spain with the HK company seems nearly impossible without getting slammed by the Spanish Tax Authorities, so i figured paying myself a Salary and keep the company separate would be my best option like Maxmmm mentioned before.
I have been doing some research and found a nice area with a house + 4 small houses which have tenants. This could solve my issue with getting the mortgage from the bank since the property comes with a fixed income - tenants pay the mortgage, which means the only issue i would have is paying the 30% of the mortgage myself. This could potentially be done by a loan from my ´employer´ (Correct me if im wrong)
Yes correct! I was born and raised close to Zwolle.
Hello wie7se,
I am registered as a resident in Spain and hold a N.I.E number which is basically a BSN number in NL.
Buying a property in Spain with the HK company seems nearly impossible without getting slammed by the Spanish Tax Authorities, so i figured paying myself a Salary and keep the company separate would be my best option like Maxmmm mentioned before.
I have been doing some research and found a nice area with a house + 4 small houses which have tenants. This could solve my issue with getting the mortgage from the bank since the property comes with a fixed income - tenants pay the mortgage, which means the only issue i would have is paying the 30% of the mortgage myself. This could potentially be done by a loan from my ´employer´ (Correct me if im wrong)
Yes correct! I was born and raised close to Zwolle.
Hello Copepe!Hey, here a Spanish lawyer!
I've read the whole thread and I think that it is really going to be very difficult to escape from the clutches of the "Tax Agency".
Tax optimization ways can be examined to pay less, but do not intend to buy a house in Spain through a company in HK of which (I suppose) you hold at least 25% of the share capital and pretend that the Treasury ignores it.
I repeat, there are always ways to reduce taxes and the first thing that occurs to me would be to set up a company in Spain, ask for a loan from the company in HK and with that money buy the house. It would be a good way to save costs.
But everything has to be studied.
All the best
Thank you for your reply,
It´s indeed very difficult. If i may ask would it be possible to keep the company separate from my private situation and pay myself a salary to Spain instead?
With this i mean to not submitting the company in a 720 form, and just pay personal taxes on my income (salary) which i will receive from the HK company to Spain?
If that is possible i could get a mortgage to purchase a property for myself instead of buying a property to rent out. Usually with a mortgage theres a 30% you need in capital yourself which i would like to take as a ´loan´ from the HK company.
The company is operated from HK has an office and employees in Hong Kong.
If you are a tax resident in Spain, obviously you will have to declare that income as earned income.
If you are not and have already declared it in HK or elsewhere, no.
The same as the above, if you are a tax resident in Spain you will have to declare form 720.
The bank will only give you a mortgage if you prove recurring income, although it all depends on the bank.
There are Spanish banks that for "internal policies" give a maximum of 50% of the mortgage credit to foreigners.
It's a setup I would personally never dare to try in the Netherlands, however I don't know how aggressive the Spanish tax authorities are. They might start raising questions if you haven't declared any income the last few years residing there but you still manage to buy a home, even with a mortgage...
And are the banks willing to provide you a loan since you didn't declare any income there the last few years?
Honestly I would personally just stick with renting our buy a place out of Spain, our become resident elsewhere and then buy a place in Spain. NHR might be something worth looking into, it would involve some planning I believe, because HK is blacklisted.
However if you are willing to take the risk, good luck.
I know a lot about the mortgag
I can tell you way how I did it and it worked fine in a setup which is a bit similar.
I bought under private name, I bought as secondary home without resindency in PT. I am employd by software company from a friend in my residenc country since 2018. this is important because it is much better when you are employd in other company where you are not the owner of the company . when you own the company the bank has to categorize you as "business man" what makes the credit check much much harder. I showed tax declaration from last 2 years + last 6 month salary slips and last 6 salary transfer bank confirmations. the local bank gave me 75% mortgage for less than 1% interest rate
But I also heard other people achieve this all what I worked hard for using fake PDFs. The banks probably put a blind eye on PDF fakes for international clients as they allways bring 25-50% own capital. In these cases the banks probably do not check the authenticity of foreign documents..... I heard this way work in many banks. But I did the honest way of course .
Keep in mind that banks often do not accept rental income as stable income. The bank mainly focus on your monthly salary , not dividends and not rental income. other banks sometime calculate only 25-80% of the rental in income as "income" .
I can tell you way how I did it and it worked fine in a setup which is a bit similar.
I bought under private name, I bought as secondary home without resindency in PT. I am employd by software company from a friend in my residenc country since 2018. this is important because it is much better when you are employd in other company where you are not the owner of the company . when you own the company the bank has to categorize you as "business man" what makes the credit check much much harder. I showed tax declaration from last 2 years + last 6 month salary slips and last 6 salary transfer bank confirmations. the local bank gave me 75% mortgage for less than 1% interest rate
But I also heard other people achieve this all what I worked hard for using fake PDFs. The banks probably put a blind eye on PDF fakes for international clients as they allways bring 25-50% own capital. In these cases the banks probably do not check the authenticity of foreign documents..... I heard this way work in many banks.
But I did the honest way of course .when you have the docs together the process is very fast. Never talk directly to the bank. Allway use "mortgage broker for non resident client" or use the mortgage service from the real estate agent who sells you the house. In this combination you will get the best service because your real estate agent probably has best contacts and motivation to bring you some mortgages in a package together with the house. They closely work with banks, lawyers and specialised agents together.
That's incredibly risky, because that's prison time if discovered, it's totally different from what you risk from being creative with income and taxes. Don't do that.But I also heard other people achieve this all what I worked hard for using fake PDFs. The banks probably put a blind eye on PDF fakes for international clients as they allways bring 25-50% own capital. In these cases the banks probably do not check the authenticity of foreign documents..... I heard this way work in many banks.
Hello Shikari,
I don t know where you live but the countries I know this will not end up in prison the first time as long as you pay your debth to the bank. There should not be any harm to any party so this is very small criminal offense. There are so many criminal people walking outside and the prisons are mostly overcrowded. One day of prison cost around 100 Euro so they will just fine you better which is more economic for everyone.
Wow, you really underestimate Hacienda. Most of the suggestions to go forward will get you in big trouble. Good luck getting a salary from your HK company and Hacienda not finding out it's yours. Enjoy 720 misreporting financial ruin, have you taken a look at the fines? Adding a loan from the HK company to the mix... why not? Let's add some more red flags just for fun.
You are going to get caught for sure and the punishment wil be off the charts. I think you are not aware of all the infractions you have commited and what could be done against you. Talk to an international tax lawyer, or better yet, just don't do it.
You are going to get caught for sure and the punishment wil be off the charts. I think you are not aware of all the infractions you have commited and what could be done against you. Talk to an international tax lawyer, or better yet, just don't do it.
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Yes that is what i´ve noticed, I found a way to get this done in a proper way. I know a company from Swiss which will invoice my HK company, and i will be ´employed´ by the company in Swiss, it comes with a cost but at the same time i wont be paying myself a salary.
I talked with several international tax lawyers but most of them give different solution, this makes it even more difficult to know whats right or wrong.
I guess leaving the company in Hong Kong be and use a mediator to pay my salary is my best option.
I won´t be adding more red flags, in fact im trying to achieve the opposite to have a normal income in Spain which i will pay tax on but it seems more difficult than i initially thought so. Maybe i would be better off just renting a property and not owning anything here in Spain.
I don´t think they will put somebody in prison right away but fines will apply, i personally think to leave it as it is for now. have a mediator pay me a salary and setting up a contract with them as it seems every step i try to take to pay tax in Spain from salary paid by Hong Kong will lead me into a situation where i will have a risk of receiving big fines.
The Spanish tax authorities seem much more aggressive than the Dutch tax authorities. I think the only option i have is - Rent to Buy contracts. So i will not face issues with large transactions being received and send from a Spanish account.
What exactly do you mean with Hong Kong being blacklisted, by who?
Thanks again for all your replies!
@thom038 have you thought about Cyprus non Dom system? You may wanna get resident there (staying 60 days a year will give a tax certificate and not being considered tax resident elsewhere).
You could distribute dividends from your HK company to a local Cyprus tax resident company (0% tax). And I guess you could buy your house from that company in Spain. I guess that you should not have problems in with Hacienfa as you will be tax resident in Cyprus (and, you will not be able to stay in Spanish more than 183 days year unless you keep a low profile and a bit off the radar...)
Thoughts about this idea from anyone?
You could distribute dividends from your HK company to a local Cyprus tax resident company (0% tax). And I guess you could buy your house from that company in Spain. I guess that you should not have problems in with Hacienfa as you will be tax resident in Cyprus (and, you will not be able to stay in Spanish more than 183 days year unless you keep a low profile and a bit off the radar...)
Thoughts about this idea from anyone?
With respect to dividend - any dividend paid by the Cyprus Company to its shareholder is SDC/Tax exempt. For dividend paid from the HK Company to the Cyprus Company then taxes could apply on the HK level (I am not aware of the HK system so I cannot comment with certainty).
Cyprus is indeed a very good options, however, I believe he should also consult a spanish tax advisor with respect to any potential exit taxes.
Also, as the OP mentioned that part of this funds are in crypto assets, I note that in Cyprus some property developers/sellers do accept payments in crypto assets, which could make his life easier.
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