How do I buy properties in Spain when residing in Spain with a Hong Kong company

[thom038]

Hello all,

Hope all is well here.

I have some questions about buying properties in Spain.

My personal situation is as following:
Dutch nationality, living in Spain for 3 years.
Never worked for a Spanish company nor did i declare tax in Spain or my home country for the past 3 years.
Since last year i opened a company in Hong Kong where i declare my corporate tax. (Have not received any salary in Spain from the company yet)
Im holding quite some funds in crypto currencies (private) and have my corporate bank account in Switzerland.

I would like to use profits from my Hong Kong company to purchase properties in Spain without a loan and use my funds to invest instead of leaving it at the bank..

Currently in touch with 2 Spanish tax advisors, one of the advisors told me to start with filling in a form (720 form) to declare all my personal assets including crypto currencies and the value of the company in Hong Kong.
The second advisor told me i could take a personal loan from the company in Hong Kong, this way i won´t be heavy taxed, and at the same time they did not tell me to fill in the 720 form...

- Personally i would like to keep my crypto assets private for now, and where possible keep the assets of the Hong Kong company too.
It seems more difficult than i had in mind since i thought without a loan from a bank it should be much easier.

Is there anybody here who has experience with a similar situation?
Could you please advise the steps i should take to not get slammed by the Spanish Tax Authorities?

Thank you in advance!

 

[dlttrading]

Hello all,

Hope all is well here.

I have some questions about buying properties in Spain.

My personal situation is as following:
Dutch nationality, living in Spain for 3 years.
Never worked for a Spanish company nor did i declare tax in Spain or my home country for the past 3 years.
Since last year i opened a company in Hong Kong where i declare my corporate tax. (Have not received any salary in Spain from the company yet)
Im holding quite some funds in crypto currencies (private) and have my corporate bank account in Switzerland.

I would like to use profits from my Hong Kong company to purchase properties in Spain without a loan and use my funds to invest instead of leaving it at the bank..

Currently in touch with 2 Spanish tax advisors, one of the advisors told me to start with filling in a form (720 form) to declare all my personal assets including crypto currencies and the value of the company in Hong Kong.
The second advisor told me i could take a personal loan from the company in Hong Kong, this way i won´t be heavy taxed, and at the same time they did not tell me to fill in the 720 form...

- Personally i would like to keep my crypto assets private for now, and where possible keep the assets of the Hong Kong company too.
It seems more difficult than i had in mind since i thought without a loan from a bank it should be much easier.

Is there anybody here who has experience with a similar situation?
Could you please advise the steps i should take to not get slammed by the Spanish Tax Authorities?

Thank you in advance!

 

[dlttrading]

I would buy on my private name without the offshore company. Before I would simulate salary in order to easy get mortgage from spanish banks. Spanish banks are focused on foreign client for mortgage lending. I did this all but in other country. I would not put 100% cash in to a property standing in a land controlled by communists. Better borrow 70% from local bank. if something within the country goes wrong take your crypto and other stash and give a s**t of the 30-40% what you put in to the property. Spanisch banks only use the house for coletarel. I heard they would not go after you when you leave the country

 

[karishi]

Buying a property in Spain will trigger all sorts of checks, even if you didn't distribute the profits of the company those profits might have been taxable in Spain under the CFC laws and you have been resident in Spain for 3 years. Spanish tax autorities are know to be inquisitive, once they understand that you have the money, they will try to get their part
In my opinion, you open a big can of worms doing that, especially since you have not paid any tax in the past 3 years. The safest way would be to move to the UAE, live there for at least 183 days this year, pay dividends from your HK company to you as UAE resident, I don't know if you have to pay 5% VAT if you go above a certain level, get your tax certificate from UAE and then buy the house in Spain as a UAE resident (you pay more taxes on it if you rent it).
Or buy a property anywhere but in Spain, but I don't know the rules for buying a house with a company, I would be interested in knowing them.
Spanish tax advisors are bad, don't trust them.
In general if you plan to live in a country, as long as you don't have a wife or kids, I think that laying low is the best option, I have residency in Spain, but have no bank account there, I pay my rent with my company account and have done the empadronamiento as I was a friend of the family that rents me the house

 

[Sir Gelato]

You can open an SL in Spain and get a bank account, etc. After a couple of months, you could do a loan to your SL from your HK company. You can buy the property with the company and if you increase share capital with the value of the assets, you will pay less taxes.
¿Where are you thinking to buy?

 

[thom038]

I would buy on my private name without the offshore company. Before I would simulate salary in order to easy get mortgage from spanish banks. Spanish banks are focused on foreign client for mortgage lending. I did this all but in other country. I would not put 100% cash in to a property standing in a land controlled by communists. Better borrow 70% from local bank. if something within the country goes wrong take your crypto and other stash and give a s**t of the 30-40% what you put in to the property. Spanisch banks only use the house for coletarel. I heard they would not go after you when you leave the country

Thank you for your reply, thats indeed what i have been thinking of, i do not hold a Spanish bank account so i figured it might be a good idea opening one - simulate salary and get a mortgage. However when hearing that i could take a loan from my HK company and buy it personal (this to pay less tax) i would own the property and can rent it out long term to create some monthly returns.

Buying a property in Spain will trigger all sorts of checks, even if you didn't distribute the profits of the company those profits might have been taxable in Spain under the CFC laws and you have been resident in Spain for 3 years. Spanish tax autorities are know to be inquisitive, once they understand that you have the money, they will try to get their part
In my opinion, you open a big can of worms doing that, especially since you have not paid any tax in the past 3 years. The safest way would be to move to the UAE, live there for at least 183 days this year, pay dividends from your HK company to you as UAE resident, I don't know if you have to pay 5% VAT if you go above a certain level, get your tax certificate from UAE and then buy the house in Spain as a UAE resident (you pay more taxes on it if you rent it).
Or buy a property anywhere but in Spain, but I don't know the rules for buying a house with a company, I would be interested in knowing them.
Spanish tax advisors are bad, don't trust them.
In general if you plan to live in a country, as long as you don't have a wife or kids, I think that laying low is the best option, I have residency in Spain, but have no bank account there, I pay my rent with my company account and have done the empadronamiento as I was a friend of the family that rents me the house

I noticed that after talking with several tax advisors. One company explained me that I do have to make sure my personal taxes are in order + corporate tax - Even sign my HK company up as a non fiscal resident in Spain in order to declare the interest received from a loan (if i were to set up a personal loan from the company). Thats exactly what i want to prevent... Being double taxed in HK and Spain + getting hit with personal taxes even though i did not take any salary in the past years.

I´m not married nor do i have kids, and have been laying low in the past years which i will continue to do so. I do not have a bank account here either, i do have some accounts like ´N26 one outside of EU and Paysera´ Which i basically live from and pay rent from etc.

I do have a N.I.E number which allows me to work here and pay taxes. But im afraid i never worked for a Spanish company or declared tax. I have several online businesses which i´m running from home which is the reason i set up the company in Hong Kong.

Would moving to the UAE be my best option? or do you think buying the house from the company itself is a possibility too? Or even make the Hong Kong company set up a Spanish company and buy the property from there?

Thank you for taking the time to reply i really appreciate it!

You can open an SL in Spain and get a bank account, etc. After a couple of months, you could do a loan to your SL from your HK company. You can buy the property with the company and if you increase share capital with the value of the assets, you will pay less taxes.
¿Where are you thinking to buy?

This is another option i had in mind. However im not sure if it would be better to have the Hong Kong company set up the SL or me as a private person open the SL.
Like Shikari said, i dont want to open a can of worms and have the Spanish Tax Authorities trying to tax me on profits made in Hong Kong, I do have an office there + employees which might help me in this. But i believe it is better to keep the Hong Kong company out of the crosshair unless having the company buy the property.
I have been living in Spain for 3 years and have never been working under contract nor received salary in Spain. Which means i would need to have my personal tax + salary organized for future purposes.
I am thinking to buy properties in Andalusia.

One of the Spanish tax advisors told me to add the Hong Kong company as asset in the 720 form. Which means telling the Spanish Tax Authorities that i own the company and that the value of the company is over 50.000 euros.

What do you think about this?

Thank you for your response Sir Gelato

 

[karishi]

I noticed that after talking with several tax advisors. One company explained me that I do have to make sure my personal taxes are in order + corporate tax - Even sign my HK company up as a non fiscal resident in Spain in order to declare the interest received from a loan (if i were to set up a personal loan from the company). Thats exactly what i want to prevent... Being double taxed in HK and Spain + getting hit with personal taxes even though i did not take any salary in the past years.

I´m not married nor do i have kids, and have been laying low in the past years which i will continue to do so. I do not have a bank account here either, i do have some accounts like ´N26 one outside of EU and Paysera´ Which i basically live from and pay rent from etc.

I do have a N.I.E number which allows me to work here and pay taxes. But im afraid i never worked for a Spanish company or declared tax. I have several online businesses which i´m running from home which is the reason i set up the company in Hong Kong.

Would moving to the UAE be my best option? or do you think buying the house from the company itself is a possibility too? Or even make the Hong Kong company set up a Spanish company and buy the property from there?

Thank you for taking the time to reply i really appreciate it!

N26 does communicate through CRS with tax authorities, what residency have you put on that account? Also the swiss banks communicate through CRS to your tax residency country, where have you put your tax residency for that?
The UAE option is the safest in my opinion, because in that case you "wash" the money with the tax certificate and nobody can tell you anything ( or it would be very very hard ) as you can say that for three years you reinvested all the profits in the company and then those profits realized while you were living tax free in the UAE. At that point you are a rich UAE guy who wants to spend time in Spain, you renew the NIE by showing 9600€ on an account and having an health insurance and keep all your business pointing to UAE and all your money in the UAE, after the first year when you got the tax certificate you don't need to spend 6 months in the UAE again, you just need to enter twice a year (yoiu don't get the tax certificate by entering twice a year), although it would be wiser to spend less than six months in Spain.
I'm sure that you can do also the Spanish Company owned by a HK company way, but in that case take into account the fact that if there is no HK substance to your companies ( so no HK staff and so on ) your company could be considered as managed in Spain and thus taxable in Spain, although I'm not 100% sure about this, it depends on double treaties and how much taxes the HK company pays, if it's below 20% or something like that, you have to pay taxes in Spain.
So really there are lots of ways you can probably do this, each one with it's own pro-cons, it also depends on whether you want to get married and have kids in the future, because it's better to plan for that too, because at that point you will be forced to settle down and simulate a monthly income, you can do that in Spain by being an autonomo and invoicing one of your companies for some kind of services. In that way you accumulate some money, and after 2-3 years you buy a house with a Loan from a Spanish bank and try to keep the company hidden ( although that goes back to the question of what residency did you put on your company bank account or if it was opened by a nominee ).

 

[Silvio]

Sounds like an awful idea mate, why do you even want to buy real estate in Spain? Especially if you are not paying\declaring anything there nor in your citizenship country.
The advice of these tax advisors sounds awful as well.

If you physically live someplace and have properties in that same place they got you by the balls and you put yourself in a big risk, you will be forever on the radar and they can claim anything they want and you have nowhere to escape.

If Spanish authorities check and realize you spend more than 180+ days in Spain they can claim you are a spanish resident and claim tax on your worldline income. It's unlikely but possible, so think very carefully if you want to expose yourself to this kind of thing.

 

[thom038]

N26 does communicate through CRS with tax authorities, what residency have you put on that account? Also the swiss banks communicate through CRS to your tax residency country, where have you put your tax residency for that?
The UAE option is the safest in my opinion, because in that case you "wash" the money with the tax certificate and nobody can tell you anything ( or it would be very very hard ) as you can say that for three years you reinvested all the profits in the company and then those profits realized while you were living tax free in the UAE. At that point you are a rich UAE guy who wants to spend time in Spain, you renew the NIE by showing 9600€ on an account and having an health insurance and keep all your business pointing to UAE and all your money in the UAE, after the first year when you got the tax certificate you don't need to spend 6 months in the UAE again, you just need to enter twice a year (yoiu don't get the tax certificate by entering twice a year), although it would be wiser to spend less than six months in Spain.
I'm sure that you can do also the Spanish Company owned by a HK company way, but in that case take into account the fact that if there is no HK substance to your companies ( so no HK staff and so on ) your company could be considered as managed in Spain and thus taxable in Spain, although I'm not 100% sure about this, it depends on double treaties and how much taxes the HK company pays, if it's below 20% or something like that, you have to pay taxes in Spain.
So really there are lots of ways you can probably do this, each one with it's own pro-cons, it also depends on whether you want to get married and have kids in the future, because it's better to plan for that too, because at that point you will be forced to settle down and simulate a monthly income, you can do that in Spain by being an autonomo and invoicing one of your companies for some kind of services. In that way you accumulate some money, and after 2-3 years you buy a house with a Loan from a Spanish bank and try to keep the company hidden ( although that goes back to the question of what residency did you put on your company bank account or if it was opened by a nominee ).

Yes that is correct, however if the total value of world wide assets is not above 50.000 Euros you do not have to declare your income (this is what i received from accountants in Spain) however the company is of higher value than 50.000 euros which will put me in a position where i will face issues.

About the Swiss bank (owned by the Hong Kong company) it states that im paying tax in Hong kong, i have an office + employees there so this will be seen as the headquarters of the Hong Kong company.
I won´t get married or have kids thats for sure. So thats not something i would take into account. However to settle in Spain myself and buy a private house here is something which i am thinking of doing.

It seems very difficult to set it up in a proper manner without getting slammed by the Spanish tax authorities... especially because Tax advisors give completely different opinions and advise..
Does anybody here know a good international tax advisor who is based in Spain or knows how to work with the Spanish system?

 

[thom038]

Sounds like an awful idea mate, why do you even want to buy real estate in Spain? Especially if you are not paying\declaring anything there nor in your citizenship country.
The advice of these tax advisors sounds awful as well.

If you physically live someplace and have properties in that same place they got you by the balls and you put yourself in a big risk, you will be forever on the radar and they can claim anything they want and you have nowhere to escape.

If Spanish authorities check and realize you spend more than 180+ days in Spain they can claim you are a spanish resident and claim tax on your worldline income. It's unlikely but possible, so think very carefully if you want to expose yourself to this kind of thing.

My plan was to use the profits i generate from the Hong Kong company to invest in real estate in Spain and rent out the properties long term to generate a new income stream.
The idea was to pay myself a salary from the Hong Kong company which i would declare in Spain as ´income´ to make sure i pay personal income tax in Spain and keep the Hong Kong company out of the crosshair.

However purchasing a property in Spain seems more difficult than i initially thought it to be.
Do you have any suggestions?
 Or would you suggest to purchase rental properties outside of Spain instead?
 Maybe even outside of Europe?



To purchase properties in Spain seems easier to me since i am resident here, whenever issues occur i can jump in where needed etc.

Do you know any international tax advisors with know how about the Spanish laws?


Looking forward to your reply!


Thank you for your reply Maxmmm

 

[dlttrading]

$

Sounds like an awful idea mate, why do you even want to buy real estate in Spain? Especially if you are not paying\declaring anything there nor in your citizenship country.
The advice of these tax advisors sounds awful as well.

If you physically live someplace and have properties in that same place they got you by the balls and you put yourself in a big risk, you will be forever on the radar and they can claim anything they want and you have nowhere to escape.

If Spanish authorities check and realize you spend more than 180+ days in Spain they can claim you are a spanish resident and claim tax on your worldline income. It's unlikely but possible, so think very carefully if you want to expose yourself to this kind of thin

 

[Silvio]

My plan was to use the profits i generate from the Hong Kong company to invest in real estate in Spain and rent out the properties long term to generate a new income stream.
The idea was to pay myself a salary from the Hong Kong company which i would declare in Spain as ´income´ to make sure i pay personal income tax in Spain and keep the Hong Kong company out of the crosshair.

However purchasing a property in Spain seems more difficult than i initially thought it to be.
Do you have any suggestions?
 Or would you suggest to purchase rental properties outside of Spain instead?
 Maybe even outside of Europe?



To purchase properties in Spain seems easier to me since i am resident here, whenever issues occur i can jump in where needed etc.

Do you know any international tax advisors with know how about the Spanish laws?


Looking forward to your reply!


Thank you for your reply Maxmmm

If all you want is some rent yield, maybe just buy some REITs. You can get 3-5% yield with zero hassle and no headaches, deposited straight into your broker account.
Plus many REITs are a bargain now due to Corona so you can actually get a better deal than buying the property directly..

 

[thom038]

If all you want is some rent yield, maybe just buy some REITs. You can get 3-5% yield with zero hassle and no headaches, deposited straight into your broker account.
Plus many REITs are a bargain now due to Corona so you can actually get a better deal than buying the property directly..

I did not think of buying REITs to be honest. I will start looking into this right away, thank you for the tip!
If i would buy REITs i can simply pay myself a salary from Hong Kong, pay tax just on my salary and keep the company away from the Spanish Tax Authorities.

The idea of purchasing properties without a loan came to mind because the returns on investments are very good in some areas.I did research in particular areas where purchasing a property for 100.000 euros could bring in between 700-800 euros per month in rent.
Which is decent and at the same time the property will increase in value over time.

But if investing in REITs could take away most of the risk which i will be facing when trying to setup a good system to purchase properties i might head into that direction!

Thanks you Maxmmm

 

[Silvio]

I did not think of buying REITs to be honest. I will start looking into this right away, thank you for the tip!
If i would buy REITs i can simply pay myself a salary from Hong Kong, pay tax just on my salary and keep the company away from the Spanish Tax Authorities.

The idea of purchasing properties without a loan came to mind because the returns on investments are very good in some areas.I did research in particular areas where purchasing a property for 100.000 euros could bring in between 700-800 euros per month in rent.
Which is decent and at the same time the property will increase in value over time.

But if investing in REITs could take away most of the risk which i will be facing when trying to setup a good system to purchase properties i might head into that direction!

Thanks you Maxmmm

You may be able to just buy REITs through your HK Corp BK account so maybe you don't even need to take the salary.

However note that these are not risk-free and there is risk in anything ... so make sure to do your due diligence and check the capitalization\debt levels etc. But it will reduce your tax risk and keep you flexible.

 

[Fred]

Buying a property in Spain will trigger all sorts of checks, even if you didn't distribute the profits of the company those profits might have been taxable in Spain under the CFC laws and you have been resident in Spain for 3 years. Spanish tax autorities are know to be inquisitive, once they understand that you have the money, they will try to get their part
In my opinion, you open a big can of worms doing that, especially since you have not paid any tax in the past 3 years. The safest way would be to move to the UAE, live there for at least 183 days this year, pay dividends from your HK company to you as UAE resident, I don't know if you have to pay 5% VAT if you go above a certain level, get your tax certificate from UAE and then buy the house in Spain as a UAE resident (you pay more taxes on it if you rent it).
Or buy a property anywhere but in Spain, but I don't know the rules for buying a house with a company, I would be interested in knowing them.
Spanish tax advisors are bad, don't trust them.
In general if you plan to live in a country, as long as you don't have a wife or kids, I think that laying low is the best option, I have residency in Spain, but have no bank account there, I pay my rent with my company account and have done the empadronamiento as I was a friend of the family that rents me the house

That's how it works.

Setup your Dubai company that grants you the residence visa and open the local UAE bank accounts with the residence visa - no CRS reporting at all because opened as resident. To keep this setup working you have to be in the UAE every 180 days for 24 hours. Once you want to start remitting the funds back to - lets say - the EU. Just make sure that you stay 1 year in the UAE for 183 days and get your tax certificate. In practice most of the time EU tax authorities doesn't ask any questions at all and in the case they do - you present the tax certificate that finally cuts all your ties to the EU. That's even working with higher 7 - 8 figures.

 

[JackAlabama]

My plan was to use the profits i generate from the Hong Kong company to invest in real estate in Spain and rent out the properties long term to generate a new income stream.
The idea was to pay myself a salary from the Hong Kong company which i would declare in Spain as ´income´ to make sure i pay personal income tax in Spain and keep the Hong Kong company out of the crosshair.

However purchasing a property in Spain seems more difficult than i initially thought it to be.
Do you have any suggestions?
 Or would you suggest to purchase rental properties outside of Spain instead?
 Maybe even outside of Europe?



To purchase properties in Spain seems easier to me since i am resident here, whenever issues occur i can jump in where needed etc.

Do you know any international tax advisors with know how about the Spanish laws?


Looking forward to your reply!


Thank you for your reply Maxmmm

spain is a wonderful country to live in, enjoy the food, the weather and the people are nice too.
however it is a communist totalitarian hellhole on the other side as well.
I would stay away from everything which is not just living as a tourist.

 

[karishi]

Yes that is correct, however if the total value of world wide assets is not above 50.000 Euros you do not have to declare your income (this is what i received from accountants in Spain) however the company is of higher value than 50.000 euros which will put me in a position where i will face issues.

About the Swiss bank (owned by the Hong Kong company) it states that im paying tax in Hong kong, i have an office + employees there so this will be seen as the headquarters of the Hong Kong company.
I won´t get married or have kids thats for sure. So thats not something i would take into account. However to settle in Spain myself and buy a private house here is something which i am thinking of doing.

It seems very difficult to set it up in a proper manner without getting slammed by the Spanish tax authorities... especially because Tax advisors give completely different opinions and advise..
Does anybody here know a good international tax advisor who is based in Spain or knows how to work with the Spanish system?

When you say that you are paying taxes in honk kong, is that your company or yourself?I mean do you have a residence in hong kong or is just your company that is paying taxes on the profits?
In any case the fact that you have susbstance in HK make this setup more robust, but as everyone told you I would still keep your company and business as hidden as possible from the Spanish Tax Authority. Do not trust any spanish tax advisor, they normally don't know what they are talking about, I used to use gestorias for basic things but resorted to doing everything myself. I wouldn't be surprised if tax advisors leaks info to the tax authorities...
In any case if I was in your situation ( and I'm in a situation similar to yours, from a EU country, offshore company, living in spain ) and I wanted to buy a property in Spain, which at a certain point I did, I would became an "autonomo", and invoice my company for a reasonable amount ( in my case I would be an autonomo as a software developer and invoice my company for hours as software developer ) so that you can put some money away in Spain regularly. If you have 30K a year after taxes it's reasonable to say that you can save 20k a year. When you have 60k, so after 3 years, buy a house with a loan from a spanish bank. In that way, the worst case scenario, as someone else suggested above, is that you lose the 60k and the money you repaid on the loan, as the tax authority will not pursue you outside of spain as you are not a spanish citizen. If you have problem, you leave Spain and never come back. This is my suggestion, of course I'm sure that you can do differently and get away with it, it's all about knowing the risks

 

[thom038]

@shikari @rainmaker @JackAlabama Thank you all for your reply.
Thank you very much for sharing your ideas and experiences. As it seems I would be way better off keeping the company hidden and just pay myself a salary like you mentioned Shikari.
The company is paying its taxes on the profits in Hong Kong, personal taxes are not part of it. From the Hong Kong side i can pay myself a salary without being heavy taxes. Obviously in Spain i will need to pay taxes on my salary.
Would it be an option to work as an employee for the company in Hong Kong and just pay myself a salary? - at the end of the year ill file my personal taxes in Spain and keep the Hong Kong company out of the picture.

I think @maxmmm had a great suggestion and I will research investing in REITs and index funds for example. I will start doing more research the moment i have my personal situation resolved.
In any case i could pay dividends or commission share at the end of the year, which then will be taxed in Spain so the income is clean and i might be able to speed up the process slightly.

The moment ill buy a property it will be for personal use instead and with a loan from a bank this to make sure i won´t take a 100% risk and wont need to funnel money to Spain.

Thank you very much for your advise!

 

[thom038]

another note*
It feels much better to ask questions here and receive feed back here than from Tax Advisors here in Spain, It´s extremely confusing when 3 different agencies give you 3 completely different advice + one states it´s very easy to setup, second agency mentions it´s extremely difficult to setup etc. Thanks for your quick response and ideas you bring to the table. Thumbs up!!

 

[Mr Gus]

I think you are forgetting the dutch tax authorities, since you said you haven't been employed nor paid taxes in Spain, I don't know if are registered as a resident in Spain, if not that could make you tax resident in the Netherlands automatically for the Dutch tax authorities.

This might not be a problem if you don't own anything on paper but as soon as you do they could find out and register you. And as soon as you enter or leave the country by plane you will be picked out. I am not saying this will happen to you, but it's possible, because the Dutch tax authorities are savages.

But if you can actually proof that you where tax resident in Spain you don't have to worry about the Dutch tax authorities, if not then you will also have to worry about the dutch tax authorities.

Honestly staying in Spain would only increase the risk of getting caught for evading taxes. You need to find a way to make your funds legal some way before buying a place in Spain, like residing in a zero tax country for a year and paying out the funds there.

Obviously you could also continue evading taxes this way but sooner or later they will find out, especially if you continue staying in Europe and even start buying houses there.

Looking at the numbers in your name I know we are from the same region of the Netherlands btw.