Has coronavirus affected you already?

[void]

I think we have found the blue print for any terrorist group or rogue scientist to bring down the global economy . We are witnessing first hand the damage a virus can do. I think the world will never be the same again. Only silver lining is the virus is not as deadly as some out there. Imagine if it was a virus that resulted in a 100% death rate on infection .

that's all true
however I wouldn't underestimate the fact that it's and will be heavily used by governments all around the world as an excuse and reasoning of the economical recession (maybe collapse) that would happen either way very soon and justification of increasing regulations and more printing of money - it's a huge disappointment for me

 

[iloveyouguys]

I think the world will never be the same again.

In what ways?

 

[Martin Everson]

In what ways?

i.e freedom of movement, the threat of use of viruses as a weapon. That threat is worse than use of a nuclear bomb. The effects of the use of a mild virus have now been proven. A small rogue state can easily and covertly develop a more deadly virus which can easily be deployed against an enemy. You could have mass death before you know whats even hit you . The genie is out the bottle now.

 

[iloveyouguys]

So dramatic. It is our selfishness that protects others. Nothing bad will happen don't worry

 

[KJK]

i.e freedom of movement, the threat of use of viruses as a weapon. That threat is worse than use of a nuclear bomb. The effects of the use of a mild virus have now been proven. A small rogue state can easily and covertly develop a more deadly virus which can easily be deployed against an enemy. You could have mass death before you know whats even hit you . The genie is out the bottle now.

I see the future of threats as more targeted and very very specific - something like Stuxnet against Iran's nuclear power plant. Even an atomic bomb is very targeted. Even if you are a rogue state, there is very little logic in developing a deadly virus that can spread uncontrollably, mutate and infect the entire population. Then of course some regimes do not use logic in their thinking.

Right now I'm worried about more obvious consequences. The clear analogy is with 9/11 - it allowed the PATRIOT Act (aka "turning citizens into suspects since 2001") in the US. USA had lots of freedom, personal privacy but in the past 19 years that definitely changed. Airport controls, indefinite detentions, warrantless home searches, NSA eavesdropping and secret programs, searching email and financial information without court order, mass phone data collection, cash confiscation, civil asset forfeiture...

All these things would be unimaginable in such a country but if you scare people enough with terrorism, they won't protest.
I can imagine new laws in countries where the virus is spreading now, especially Europe, SE Asia - for example unlimited and warrantless cell phone tracking, border control questionnaires (where have you been, who did you meet, why are you travelling), bullying of residents who are citizens of another country etc etc.

 

[Martin Everson]

Even if you are a rogue state, there is very little logic in developing a deadly virus that can spread uncontrollably, mutate and infect the entire population. Then of course some regimes do not use logic in their thinking.

Suicide bombers, Japanese doomsday cults. I wouldn't depend on logic. There are people willing to die as much as you are willing to live. They want to see the after life and take everyone with them .

I can imagine new laws in countries where the virus is spreading now, especially Europe, SE Asia - for example unlimited and warrantless cell phone tracking, border control questionnaires (where have you been, who did you meet, why are you travelling), bullying of residents who are citizens of another country etc etc.

Well they will now need to monitor your movement and keep track of who you have been in contact with. All in the name of tracking the spread of any future virus . Be prepared to start being chipped with RFID's. Also this mass testing is just an excuse to create a mass DNA database of the entire population by the back door. All these measures are for law enforcement to make their job easier to fight crime and keep track of the population.


"And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark— the name of the beast or the number of its name. Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666." - Revelations

 

[marioIT]

NSA eavesdropping and secret programs, mass phone data collection...

The regional government of Lombardy (most hit Italian region by coronavirus) just announced they used cell phone towers to prove that people aren't staying at home.
Data showed 40% of people moving between cells more than 500m/1km apart.
As soon as they announced this the Italian data protection authority (pretty much a useless money pit unless they have to show the world they exist) chimed in telling them to stop doing that
then after a while they sent a corrected press release, like: "under emergencies, individual rights go on the back burner..."
50k people have been fined these days, plus the 3 months criminal charge pending on them. (I am pretty sure it'll be dropped, courts were already damn full before covid...)

I am pretty sure it'll be hell after this. and they'll be justified to raise taxes even more and add more excises and wealth taxes...
if you are thinking of taking your money out of EU, I'd do it right now...

 

[Martin Everson]

The regional government of Lombardy (most hit Italian region by coronavirus) just announced they used cell phone towers to prove that people aren't staying at home.

Sad but many countries do this including US, China and UK .

if you are thinking of taking your money out of EU, I'd do it right now...

People should have been done that years ago. Freedom of movement in EU is dead right now and freedom of movement of capital could follow.

I am trying to work out how economically Italy can recover without more huge debt being generated.

 

[OTR365]

I feel sorry for Italians and I still don't understand why it spreads so fast, even faster than in China.

- In many Asian countries, wearing a mask while on the street is quite common. Also, they were hit hard by SARS, so they know what to do, how to behave.
- Italy and many other European countries have none of that cultural knowledge
- In Italy, it is common for children to live with their parents until 30+, even older. Moreover, often their grandparents (a vulnerable group) live in the same household
- Italians do cheek kisses, also in some places it is OK to touch a friend's face etc.
- Chinese quarantine measures were draconian. In the early stages of the virus, Italians were still hugging Chinese tourists to show solidarity. In the UK, they had mass concerts just a few days ago.
Etc. etc.

A very deadly virus - such as one killing 50% of infected - would burn itself out very soon. A less deadlier virus is actually more dangerous. Infected people stay alive, perhaps without any symptoms, infecting many others.

 

[Martin Everson]

Also it seems a very low percentage of Italians wash their hands....no offense intended. They are one of the lowest hand washers in EU it seems .

 

[marioIT]

Said by the one running around on his bed sheets and table cloth as bath towel...
Maybe we're more honest than others in that chart... UK in the previous edition of that declared 95%... explain that fall in just a few years
I don't know, if maybe they interviewed shabby single men over 60yo in Italy (as the average age is pretty high), then maybe that could be true.
I don't really think we're any worse than Spain and France honestly.
If we talk about personal hygiene tough, you're going to open a can of worms and I'll delight you with some fine experience I had in UK, France and Spain that shocked me and pretty much every Italian I know even the great flawless land, commonly called as Germany, has not too much to laugh off

 

[marioIT]

Back on thread OTR365 is right. Being well-traveled I notice little things like
- we talk at closer distances
- we touch/interact with others a lot, like talking, pointing, hugs, kisses, not on random strangers, but on acquaintance for sure. Many of this would be classified as assault in USA and UK
- we tend to live "in herds", I mean on average we're very social, seeing friends daily after work, aperitivos daily in very crowded places (very true in northern italy) etc etc

other than that, plenty of Italians working in China (many managers fly regularly) and plenty of Chineses working in Italy. The first guy diagnosed with covid is a multinational manager that came back from a meeting in China. But don't know how far this thing will hold, I know doctors telling me of weird pneumonias in northern italy already before christmas!

 

[marioIT]

U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said he supports direct payments of $1,000 per adult and $500 per child to Americans within three weeks if Congress backs the plan.

“The president is determined that we are going to support” those affected, Mnuchin said in a Fox Business interview Thursday morning."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-19/mnuchin-wants-1-000-per-adult-500-a-child-in-direct-payments

 

[Martin Everson]

U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said he supports direct payments of $1,000 per adult and $500 per child to Americans within three weeks if Congress backs the plan.

Great so they will all go out and buy an iphone 11, ten more packs of toilet rolls and a Netflix subscription. Then they will be back asking for more money the next day .

 

[marioIT]

I am trying to work out how economically Italy can recover without more huge debt being generated.

forget about it. Many tried in the last 100 years, everyone with a decent IQ: "Italy is ungovernable".
Right now it's a mix between anarchy and socialism.
The place has severely turned left - full socialist... that's not helping.
Constitution also was written by commies and turncoats, "State should give me anything", open borders there's money for everyone, and the likes.
If you want to live like a parasite that's the place. If you don't want to work and want to piss off your employer while still not being fired, you can by using Unions and small stupid laws from 100years ago, you can go years without working while being paid.
If you end in jail the state will pay your pension too.
Not a place worth to be an entrepreneur. Nor an honest citizen.
I see no way out unless a big war happens.

 

[Martin Everson]

Hummm.....I can only imagine ECB will be buying vast amounts of Italian bonds and securities in their 750bn stimulus. That should remove pressure from Italy.

European stocks climb and Italian bonds rally after ECB asset-purchase plan

----- quote start

The ECB said it would buy private and public sector securities worth 750 billion euros in what it labelled the Pandemic Emergency Purchase Program.

ECB President Christine Lagarde said that “there are no limits to our commitment to the euro,” which reminded many of the “whatever it takes” comments from Mario Draghi, her predecessor.

---- quote end

 

[Gediminas]

I see no way out unless a big war happens.

There is always a way out, stay positive!

 

[marioIT]

I just stopped fighting "the system" as is fucked beyond repair.
I mean they locked us at home. Cannot go anywhere except for food/work/health issues. But then they said we could walk the dogs...
guess what? police caught people walking fake dogs (puppets) to get out

I am positive! an airplane is a good way out!
sadly is not easy when you employ people and have other ties.

 

[void]

There is always a way out, stay positive!

Hardly, the way under states and governments leads only one direction.... tax hell, conflict, reset

 

[marioIT]

LOL I see now they are doing this in other countries too!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239207596256628739

in spain are renting the dogs as you don't get a fine if you walk the dog

MEANWHILE IN ISRAEL

https://twitter.com/x/status/1240598509088387072