Georgian Residence Permit via Business

[avalanche]

It's great to check with local lawyers. The official rule would be the Georgian original (I can't read Georgian) not the translation, but also the approach by officials doesn't always match the letter of the law anyway.

From some discussions I had, it seems to depend quite a lot on nationality. Some nationals seem to be treated more strictly and others more leniently.

Lawyers gave me these instructions so far.

 

[unicorn]

the internet speed and water is reassuring so far thank you for that !

I agree that accountants and lawyers have contracting versions of what the "law" says ...

and if you ask a Georgian government body, they reply in ... Georgian !

I asked if you could import your car. They replied that permanent residents can import their car and household stuff tax free.

But ... it takes 6 years before you can obtain permanent residency.

They replied something that google translate is unable to translate. It has something to do with 90 days but I'm not sure if that means "applying 90 days ahead of time" or you can drive your own car for 90 days free of import procedures / costs ...

19 ° sounds great - - 8 ° on the other hand ... brrrr ... how many months per year do temperatures drop under 0 please ?

is it warmer in tblisi or rather near the cost eg batumi ?

thank you for sharing your "real life experiences" !

 

[khinkali]

@unicorn only January has an average temperature low below zero. -8 is unusual for this time of year, but so is 19. Average for February is 0 at night and 8 in daytime. But even now it's often sunny. It's not windy today, so you if you are used to Northern Europe you could sit in the sun quite comfortably without a coat.

Batumi is coastal and milder. Not so hot in Summer, not so cold in Winter. 5% less sunshine than Tbilisi. The climate sections on Wikipedia have a nice table. It's worth comparing to your current or home location for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi#Climatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batumi#Climate
I don't know if it's still 90 days but I met someone who's lived a few years in Tbilisi, taking his car to Sadakhlo or Red Bridge (crossings for Armenia and Azerbaijan) periodically to avoid paying the excise tax. I was surprised because other countries with high registration charge (e.g. Malta) are strict about re-importing the same vehicle to avoid registration.

It doesn't seem ideal for the long term . Unless the car is registered in Armenia or Azerbaijan, it would be a pain to keep it legal (vehicle testing etc).

 

[unicorn]

Thank you for your helpful input khinkali, that is helpful ! How long have you been in Georgia please ? What would be your top 3 of the + of living there and what would be the top 3 of the - ? What made you decide to do there and how did it improve your life ?

 

[khinkali]

@unicorn a little over 18 months. I was in Thailand for almost 3 years before and I my number one reason for moving was bureaucracy. The lifestyle pluses are that the weather is great compared to UK or Thailand (the Sun shines most days, low humidity), the food and wine are good and the people are friendly. Tbilisi is very laid back. The minuses for me are a 5 or 6 hour flight to UK in a short haul seat, lack of household postal delivery (address verification issues) and the language is hard to learn (you can get by without, but...).

 

[Jonny Cage]

Hi. Georgian here.
Will be hard to comment on everything was mentioned in this thread. Will tell you in short, getting residency is very easy on the paper. Yes, its true, you can just be an Individual Entrepreneur and have 4K on you bank account and get residence permit. However, depending on your nationality, law can be interpreted differently for you. They say uts a matter of national security.

@khinkali nice nickname

 

[unicorn]

Hello Khinkali & Jonny Cage, thank you both for your feedback ! It's helpful that you mentioned the bureaucracy in Thailand, as one of my ideas was a BOI company that also gives you residency and 13 years tax exemption. I prefer paying some tax somewhere, than being tax exempt and having to deal with bureaucracy all the time so BOI goes of my list and Georgia stays on. I don't think they'll oppose much to EU nationalities ... if there is one advantage of coming from a citizen-squeezing EU country, it's that they usually like to see you come.

Khinkali, how do you get around for transportation please ? Did you import a car ? What if you want to go out and take trips ? In Tblisi I can imagine it's easy to get around, but what outside of the city ? I know ... the language ... not only speaking but WRITING it ! I think you must be born there to really master the language.

Would either one of you know if it would be possible to rent a house with land to keep animals (for pleasure, not agriculture) near a city ? Or is renting this type of property rather rare / difficult ? Or at what rent price that would come approximately - eg. house with barn and 4-5 hectares ? Any idea of what household help might cost in Georgia ? Is it rather easy or rather difficult to find trustworthy eg housekeepers or people to watch over your house while you're abroad ?

 

[khinkali]

@unicorn BOI is good in principle, but you're always going to find some kinds of bureaucratic headaches in Thailand.

I live in Tbilisi so I don't have a car, just as I wouldn't if I lived in Bangkok or London. I can walk to the Metro and taxi apps are efficient here. To take a trip I just hire a car from a reputable international car rental company. Depending on where you're from, you might not enjoy driving here.

I can't imagine anybody thinking that you should learn any of the three Georgian alphabets. You need a translator for legal documents, but the processes tend not to be too arduous.

Hopefully @Jonny Cage can give you some thoughts on the rural lifestyle. If you're thinking about a house, barn and animals in a village in Georgia then I really think you should spend some time here first. I've not heard someone consider this before, unless they've married a local person.

 

[unicorn]

I don't want to be in the "pure" isolated countryside far away from everything - but I do need land (or a place where i could park my horses near a city) so somewhere on the outskirts of a city would be perfect. I've lived in isolated places so this doesn't worry me. Driving is not an issue either, as long as there are tow services or a farmer with a tractor that can come and pick you up when you get stuck, I'm fine with it, I drove in the desert and on roads so bumpy, able to break someone's neck ... a more important issue for me in the "rural" side is internet connection and electricity and water cuts.

I need a country as a base to park my horses safely, live there part of the year, and travel around the rest of the year. If you could get your hands on any information about horse stables in Georgia (near a city) I'ld be interested. That would solve the "find house with land" part. Yes ... I do have the impression that most of the people here are single guys traveling around alone but I'm actually a single mom with a small zoo to go international with, having to manage and business and home school so that requires a bit more planning and limits my possibilities to go visit countries to school holidays ...

O, there's THREE alphabets ??? As one wasn't enough ??? Keeps getting better and better ...

 

[khinkali]

The roads are bumpy, but I was thinking more about the kamikaze style overtaking. You can't expect utilities like in Germany or Singapore, so I keep some water for the occasional day when it's off and I use 4G for backup Internet.

I am 99% sure that you won't need to worry about the alphabets. But you're looking for property that isn't likely to be advertised in English. Georgian people are really nice and helpful, but you're stepping out of the English-friendly zone and you need to work out how to communicate with the neighboring farmer when you need him to send several of his five sons and five sons in law with a tractor and rope (and probably some chacha to help keep spirits up ).

My needs have been simpler than yours so far and I deal with most things myself; each of my landlords has been willing to help when needed. But in your case I think you'd be crazy not to find a Georgian speaker to help with local knowledge, legal issues, property, etc.

Also I really think you could do with a vacation in a place like this before moving permanently. Plenty of people fall in love with Georgia, but there are also plenty for whom it will never work. I guess that goes for most places.

 

[Traveler]

If you're thinking about a house, barn and animals in a village in Georgia then I really think you should spend some time here first. I've not heard someone consider this before, unless they've married a local person.

There's also the issue that foreigners are not allowed to buy what's considered agricultural land, and as far as I know, this applies to virtually all land that private houses are built on outside of the 3 major cities (Tbilisi, Batumi & Kutaisi). There are supposedly some ways around this restriction but none appear very good.

But Tbilisi itself is a very livable city, and it's possible to find nice houses in the outskirts, while still legally within Tbilisi city limits and therefore not under the ban.

 

[Jonny Cage]

There's a place very close to Tbilisi, called Tsodoreti. I know people have hourse stables there. The place has all the utilities as far as I know. I have also land about 10 km from that place where internet is a problem. Just let me know. I'll be happy to help you, when you are here. Or lookup lands on this website www.area.ge

 

[unicorn]

Hello Khinkali & Traveler & Jonny Cage, I really do appreciate your honest and fast feedback - these real life experiences are exactly what makes this forum so valuable.

Traffic ... Right ... kamikaze style ... hadn't considered that ... Jonny Cage, how are the connections please to go from Tblisi to Tsodoreti let's say if I wouldn't bring my car ? Any busses ? Approximate cost of taxi from Tblisi ?

Buying a property or land is not what i would do. I'm stuck with a property now I'm trying to sell (anyone you know interested in a horse ranch in France, let me know) so we can move and start our new lives. If you rent, you pack up and go. If you buy, you need to find someone who buys after you and that is not evident in these times of EU crisis (EU banks don't give loans to people nowadays for properties above a certain amount - I had a potential buyer who asked a loan for 50 % of the price, other half paid in cash and the bank REFUSED !! to me it indicates the banks know perfectly what is coming to the EU, which is why I want to get out of the EU). Perhaps later when my new (to start up) company is profitable, the company could buy something, IF we would enjoy living there. I've learned not to look too far ahead in the future as life has its own course often out of our control or not what we'ld expect ...

Visiting is never the same like living in a place so even if you take a vacation, you won't know until you do it. I can live with the chacha, it's similar here. I'm not worried about the language either, somehow that always works out to understand each other. Even in the EU and in languages I understand, I always doublecheck with professionnals.

My plan was to visit Georgia and look for property to rent while visiting (and creating virtual IT company and opening bank account at the same time, which is a certain factor in the plan - only the country of (tax) residency is not certain yet ; for South America it costs 25.000 euro to transport the horses (no kidding) not to mention import requirements and the mandatory stop in the US when flying from the EU ... and 1 is so nervous i fear the flight might kill it !! staying "on land" allows transport by horse truck ; my daughter is used to traveling - checks in the airport from age 3 by herself so I see no problem there. She and I are flexible. It's the zoo that needs a fixed and reliable place. We ourselves would not spend more than 6-7 months in Georgia the first year. We would be semi-fixed, semi-mobile - the animals need to stay in 1 country.

Did anyone drive with the car from France (or other EU country) to Georgia or the other way around ? It is doable ? I read if you take the north route (ukraine) you must drive through occupied terrorist area in Georgia - is this true or exagerated please ? Other option is through Turkey. Here any information about car insurance in Georgia / other formalities is welcome. Eg : how long does it take to cross the border with Turkey ? Can you drive your own car in Georgia ? Do you need an international drivers licence ? (I got replies in georgian from the government when I asked these questions ... and a link to their website - also in Georgian - wonderful people in the government, a super fast reply, alas google translator couldn't translate the legal language they've sent me).

Other country for (tax) residency could be Cyprus, but there ... there is little to no good quality hay for horses . Seriously man ... Eastern Europe : very cheap to live / rent / even buy but winters too cold / too long for the horses ... (and for us too).

Khinkali is right, there is little to no farms advertised - not even in Georgian. Those I found were either huge or very old, mostly for sale, did not find 1 for rent so far. This is something to discuss while being in Georgia, with the owners directly I think. If you'ld have any contacts Jonny Cage, or maybe have a chance to ask around (we won't come to Georgia until June or July probably ; brother decided to get married in Spain during easter holiday) that would be a great time saver. Are you yourself in Tblisi itself or nearby ? And ... thank you for the tip about the internet problem outside of the city - that narrows down the search options to the 3 cities basically.

@ Traveler : so if I understand you correctly, if in the 2nd year for example, we'ld want to buy a property, the situation as for now is that foreigners can only buy property within the limits of these 3 cities ? (except for investment deals outisde these cities)

@ Jonny Cage : your mention of Tsodoreti is helpful ! I found this on the internet : GEORGIOS RANCH - Prices & Reviews (Tsodoreti, Georgia) - Tripadvisor ; now I have a starting point to contact. I had no clue where to start looking for horse info in Georgia. Perhaps they take other horses in pension. That would be a good solution. We in the city, horses just outside the city, so we can go see them every day, some riding lessons for daughter - sounds perfect.

If by any chance, you would know any people with land and stables near Tblisi or Kutaisi, who would accept taking horses, that is something that would definitely be helpful. This way, when we come to Georgia, we could visit a couple of places and make a contract. Ideally we would move in the summer holiday but there is no urgency. These are our 3 main criteria for (tax) residency : territorial tax (or non dom Cyprus) + fast reliable internet + stables & land for horses ... (as if CRS, CFC, high tax aren't enough limitations ).

I'ld love to meet up with you when we come to Georgia, sounds like fun ! If someone wants a holiday in France, we have a guest house free for friends (and fast internet).

 

[khinkali]

@unicorn I'm with you on renting and flexibility. chacha is the local grape must spirit (like grappa).

Georgia accepts Latin or Cyrillic drivers licenses held for more than 1 year without an IDP, but you do need to carry your passport. You can drive on the foreign license for 1 year, but a three minute visit to Armenia gets you another year. Also you are expected to use the car horn a lot and make way for vehicles pulling out without warning. There is no compulsory car insurance (!!!).

Did anyone drive with the car from France (or other EU country) to Georgia or the other way around ?

I'm sure someone has, but they're probably certifiable. ;-)

You really don't want to enter Georgian administered Georgia via occupied Georgia or occupied Ukraine. Apart from being unsafe, you would be in Georgia illegally. You can drive through Russia and Azerbaijan with some visa hassles. You sound adventurous, but I wouldn't risk it without a local person (and maybe an armed escort!)

The only realistic driving option is via Turkey but it's a long trek and I don't know how practical. There are car import taxes based on engine size. I would just sell in France and buy in Rustavi.

I don't want to seem overly dramatic about the coronavirus, but this might be a bad time for a road trip. Right now Turkish citizens are being denied entry at the Turkey/Georgia border if they've been through Italy and we don't know what the next restriction will be.

 

[unicorn]

good morning khinkali, I'm starting to wonder if there's anything you don't know .

I'm speeding up on my checklist for sure since I found you ; so definitely a no go for the north trip ; check. I didn't know it was that bad up there.

I don't mind a long trek, so Turkey it is. Import tax car : not for only visiting a couple of weeks, right ? You mean import tax = when you bring your car definitely to Georgia ? I thought someone wrote there is a 90 day period so if you combine that with your 3 minute Armenia trip (nice sense of humor) it may mean tax free import for just 12 minutes a year in Armenia - where I'ld like to visit too so that sounds perfect.

I wonder how they settle their car crashes - what if someone doesn't have insurance and kills someone ?

I don't believe in hypes like the coronavirus. There has been much worse through history and besides I believe in destiny. Mine is not reached yet and I had my dose of shitty things happening to me to last me a lifetime so I'm all good to go. The virus poeha is the perfect prelude for yet another vaccin and it may just as well be a biological warfare experiment (US trade war - corono starting in China hm).

 

[khinkali]

anything you don't know

Most things! But there are a few things you work out when you move somewhere new.

Yes import tax has some period. I've met someone who does the "border hop" for a car indefinitely, but where would you do vehicle tax, insurance, vehicle inspections, etc.? I don't know if you can do all that here with a foreign car and I doubt you can keep it legal in France without going back there for vehicle tests. I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of stress.

I have no idea how serious accidents are dealt with. For minor bumps it looks like people wave their arms around and shout for a couple of minutes, then hug. The police come and take pictures (I think that you can't move either car until the police come). I would not want to be uninsured, especially as a foreigner.

The border guards probably don't care if you believe about the virus or not. I'm just saying that right now, some people are getting stuck and if you're driving from country A to country B via countries D, E and F but you're a citizen of country X, it might not be smooth.

I think we've strayed a long way from residence permits, I'll be quiet now!

 

[unicorn]

Hilarious !!!!!!!!! They shout and then hug !!!!!!!!!!! Hopla some chacha and all is forgotten - until they come home and have to explain their wife why the car lost a door - or perhaps even 2

O boy ... I just can't stop laughing ...

Nope, I disagree, this is all related to Georgia residency. It's all stuff related to living and residing in Georgia that "outsiders" are not aware off. Residency is more than getting a piece of paper. What good a piece of paper would do me for example if I would get shot by rebels or Russians on the wrong border - or as you mention, be stuck on the other border ; it's not minor details if your aim is residency and you can't even get into the country.

 

[Jea]

Yes, its true, you can just be an Individual Entrepreneur and have 4K on you bank account and get residence permit.

You forgot to add, that you also need to pay Georgian taxes (on income of at least GEL 50 000).

 

[Jea]

lack of household postal delivery (address verification issues)

What do you mean?
AFAIK, you can get utility bills delivered to your address. You can also get confirmation with you name and address from Georgian banks.

 

[khinkali]

@Jea it might depend on which utility company. I don't have to pay bills myself. I've only seen some bills for previous landlords; they didn't have the details I'd need for KYC but maybe others do.

I don't know about other banks but TBC give me a letter showing my name, passport number and balance, with their stamp to make it official. I think it's about $3. I only have Georgian language versions to hand, but in English it was something like "The address provided to us by our customer is....". Maybe this is OK for your KYC needs; I'll try it with crypto exchanges next month and if it doesn't work I'll register for tax here or get a residence permit.

I assume the reason for the odd wording is that there is not a door to door postal service here. My bank don't know if I live where I say I do.

also need to pay Georgian taxes (on income of at least GEL 50 000)

The business turnover needs to be GEL 50k per year per residence permit (about $1500 per month) and each employee needs to make 5x the "minimum subsistence level of an average customer" in Georgia. If I read things correctly then it looks like it's about $300 per month. So if your business has deductible expenses then you should be looking at less than 20% * 50k tax. A local tax advisor can probably be very helpful.

https://sda.gov.ge/?page_id=11645&lang=enhttp://migration.commission.ge/files/georgian_residence_permit_rsm.pdf