Fighting for Ukraine – a discussion...

[369]

you are to naive to understand that ukraine has already being divided by USA and Russia between Russia and Poland.
US wants a new front against BRICS with poland/west ukraine and russia needs the east of ukraine to protect moscow from long destination missles.
Ukrainians telling we fight for our freedom are delusional and naive and maybe even stupid

And the narritive russian is the agressor maybe people should first listen to the interview from ukrainian defense minster at that time from 2019 where he clearly stated ukraine is going to apply to be nato member which will FORCE russia by 99.5% to start a war with ukraine.
So knowing the fact if applying to NATO you have by 99.5% a war instead of staying neutral between Russia and EU to avoid a war you choosed the way which benefits the big western corpo instead of ukrainian people.
That's Ukraine an as such corrupt corpo country its being seen by eastern EU citizens

 

[John Spectre]

will play game with russian propagandists:
1. what date when russia start occupying Ukraininan lands (Crimea, Donbas)?
2. what date when Ukrainian constitution was changed and its 'neutral' state was removed?
3. what date when full scale invasion started?
4. what date when Ukraine applied to NATO membership?

Correct answers for this questions could easily answer for the question if Ukraine anyhow provoked russia or it's a just a response.

And anyone who think that 2014 its a beginning of russian agression to the ukrainian side, could google for example '2003 Tuzla Island conflict' (especially for the roosters who start crowing about the Maidan of 2004)
it's just that some things in this world are almost inevitable

 

[polonieth]

will play game with russian propagandists:
1. what date when russia start occupying Ukraininan lands (Crimea, Donbas)?
2. what date when Ukrainian constitution was changed and its 'neutral' state was removed?
3. what date when full scale invasion started?
4. what date when Ukraine applied to NATO membership?

Correct answers for this questions could easily answer for the question if Ukraine anyhow provoked russia or it's a just a response.

And anyone who think that 2014 its a beginning of russian agression to the ukrainian side, could google for example '2003 Tuzla Island conflict' (especially for the roosters who start crowing about the Maidan of 2004)
it's just that some things in this world are almost inevitable

This argument attempts to frame Russia’s actions as unprovoked aggression by selectively choosing dates to fit a pre-determined narrative, so lame.

Correct answers:

1. The conflict started when Ukraine attacked Donbas, not when Russia "occupied" it. The actual military invasion of Donbas by Russia came in 2022 but Donbas had been at war for eight years before that.

2. Ukraine’s neutrality was de facto removed in 2014 after the coup, not in 2019. NATO’s push into Ukraine started in 2008, not in 2019. Russia’s concerns about NATO expansion long predate 2019.

3. The war started in 2014, not in 2022. The full-scale invasion was an escalation of an existing conflict.

4. Ukraine began its NATO integration in 2008, not 2022. The formal application was just a symbolic step after years of military cooperation.

5. The Tuzla dispute is entirely irrelevant to the 2014 war. If Russia was so aggressive, why did it not seize Crimea in 2003?

Even if you dislike Russia and all that jazz, I don't understand why people cannot see the West deliberately pushed Ukraine into this war and then abandoned it when it became inconvenient. I suppose it's because it would mean admitting you stupidly fell for the narrative yet again, for example, it's very hard to find someone who can admit taking 2+ doses of an experimental gene therapy product was a bad idea. Yet they're not taking it anymore but strangely can't explain why

You fall more into the category of propagandist rather than normie, but watching these NPCs cling to their vaccines and Ukraine activism is dreadful. The brain damage these people have endured from non-stop propaganda, astroturfing and fake news is unfathomable.

 

[John Spectre]

With pleasure.

The year USA, or NATO rather, started to help Ukraine with money with strings attached, with the first attemts to overthrow the government (2014 - succesfull), then - secretly sending weapons, training the troops, setting up labs on borders for creating biological weapons... And turning the country against Russia with all the means possible, with propaganda ....

predates all of that.

Some, if not all these activities, have been admitted in the Western newspapers. Washington Post, for instance.

Next question?

you didn't answer any of my 4 questions

And this nonsense of biolabs on borders, secret weapon which nobody and never used or seen..just facepalm

to be honest, you could stay in line with people like 369 poloniex etc. I don't even bother to spent time on you if you continue to spread such dumb statements

 

[polonieth]

you didn't answer any of my 4 questions

And this nonsense of biolabs on borders, secret weapon which nobody and never used or seen..just facepalm

to be honest, you could stay in line with people like 369 poloniex etc. I don't even bother to spent time on you if you continue to spread such dumb statements

https://twitter.com/x/status/1630557319002988546

Were you in Kiev to get some of the cookies she handed out??

 

[John Spectre]

Well these certainly are selective questions. And even though I as a neutral will be called a Russian propagandist anyway (yawn), I would point out that mistrust began since 1945 at least. After Germany reunited, Russia sought (and got) assurances that NATO wouldn't expand in Russia's direction. Each action since then reneged on that agreement and provoked Russia. Russia's warnings about continued encroachment were clear. Now NATO is at Russia's doorstep. The Cold War should be over in 1991 but NATO didn't get the memo, even denying Russia membership in NATO.

So here we are today. NATO has lost its proxy war and now Trump is putting an end to it.

I fail to see how Trump seeking to stop this war makes him the bad guy in all this.

I asked when Ukraine provoked rusland, not the NATO, USA or any other countries.
Since you are switched directly to another countries I suggest you even don't have any evidence of any provocation from Ukraine side?

I am amazed. 4 simple questions were asked, the answers to which are 4 dates in the format: "day. month. year". but in response to this we get a bunch of reasoning "about this and that", "why and how", etc. just like raids on the astronomy channel with stories about the earth being flat

 

[daniels27]

1. what date when russia start occupying Ukraininan lands (Crimea, Donbas)?
20 February 2014

2. what date when Ukrainian constitution was changed and its 'neutral' state was removed?
23 December 2014

3. what date when full scale invasion started?
24 February 2022

4. what date when Ukraine applied to NATO membership?
30 September 2022

 

[John Spectre]

oh, and for fans of stories about how the Maidan in 2004 and 2013 was easily bought by the USA.

Now the USA don't like Zelensky and his government, they want a change of power through re-elections.
And many Ukrainians don't support the president, that's true.

Why can't the USA organize another Maidan for cheap, in which they will overthrow Zelensky for force their wish of elections?

The police and the military won't go to protect Zelensky if he really has a 4% rating. that means everything should be very simple and fast. right?

Or maybe actual truth a bit different?

for the roosters who will say that during martial law it is illegal to hold meetings/rallies - well, it is also illegal to hold elections during martial law (it was written in the constitution long before Zelensky)

 

[polonieth]

oh, and for fans of stories about how the Maidan in 2004 and 2013 was easily bought by the USA.

Now the USA don't like Zelensky and his government, they want a change of power through re-elections.
And many Ukrainians don't support the president, that's true.

Why can't the USA organize another Maidan for cheap, in which they will overthrow Zelensky for force their wish of elections?

The police and the military won't go to protect Zelensky if he really has a 4% rating. that means everything should be very simple and fast. right?

Or maybe actual truth a bit different?

for the roosters who will say that during martial law it is illegal to hold meetings/rallies - well, it is also illegal to hold elections during martial law (it was written in the constitution long before Zelensky)

Your arguments always seem to misunderstand how US-backed regime change works and confus shifting US policy with a lack of influence.

The US doesn’t need to stage another Maidan because it no longer has to. So why perform such mental gymnastics to stick your narrative?

Don't you realise that the US didn’t suddenly "lose its ability" to influence Ukraine. It’s just a different administration with different priorities. Nuland and the CFR are no longer influencing matters.

The Colour Revolution 2004 and Maidan Coup in 2014 were carefully orchestrated at times when Ukraine’s government was divided, the state was weak, and the West had a clear alternative leader to install.

Right now, Ukraine is under martial law, Zelensky has full control of the security apparatus, and there is no obvious Western-backed replacement ready to take power. Although it seems Trump is already talking to other potential leaders...

It should be fairly obvious that a street revolution isn’t necessary when simply cutting off funding will collapse his government.

The real issue isn’t whether elections can legally happen under martial law, but why the West suddenly lost interest in making Ukraine look like a democracy?? Any ideas??

Zelensky’s consolidation of power, banning of opposition, and election suspension were all tolerated when he was useful. Now that the war is lost and Washington is shifting focus elsewhere, he’s being sidelined. Has he even returned to Ukraine yet?

Again those those at the back of the room, this isn’t about the US "losing the ability" to remove a leader, it’s about them no longer needing to.

When Ukraine’s military situation deteriorates even further and Western support dries up, Zelensky will either step down or be replaced from within, probably unalived. No Maidan required...

 

[PassinBy]

With pleasure.

The year USA, or NATO rather, started to help Ukraine with money with strings attached, with the first attemts to overthrow the government (2014 - succesfull), then - secretly sending weapons, training the troops, setting up labs on borders for creating biological weapons... And turning the country against Russia with all the means possible, with propaganda ....

predates all of that.

Some, if not all these activities, have been admitted in the Western newspapers. Washington Post, for instance.

Next question?

One President left the country under a cloud of corruption, and in the absence of a Constitutional process for this, the Rada declared him medically unfit, stuck in a care-taker from the second biggest party, and had a full election months later that elected someone who threatened to shot Right Sector protestors if they didn't stop blocking a coal deal with the Separatist regions.

It's a pretty lame coup. Whatever Western involvement in encouraging it, I think McCain paling around with Azov was a terrible look, it didn't "overthrow" the government.

(I still think Z was a moron pursuing the personal sanctions on the few people in the country Putin trusted.)

 

[PassinBy]

Your arguments always seem to misunderstand how US-backed regime change works and confus shifting US policy with a lack of influence.

The US doesn’t need to stage another Maidan because it no longer has to. So why perform such mental gymnastics to stick your narrative?

Don't you realise that the US didn’t suddenly "lose its ability" to influence Ukraine. It’s just a different administration with different priorities. Nuland and the CFR are no longer influencing matters.

The Colour Revolution 2004 and Maidan Coup in 2014 were carefully orchestrated at times when Ukraine’s government was divided, the state was weak, and the West had a clear alternative leader to install.

Right now, Ukraine is under martial law, Zelensky has full control of the security apparatus, and there is no obvious Western-backed replacement ready to take power. Although it seems Trump is already talking to other potential leaders...

It should be fairly obvious that a street revolution isn’t necessary when simply cutting off funding will collapse his government.

The real issue isn’t whether elections can legally happen under martial law, but why the West suddenly lost interest in making Ukraine look like a democracy?? Any ideas??

Zelensky’s consolidation of power, banning of opposition, and election suspension were all tolerated when he was useful. Now that the war is lost and Washington is shifting focus elsewhere, he’s being sidelined. Has he even returned to Ukraine yet?

Again those those at the back of the room, this isn’t about the US "losing the ability" to remove a leader, it’s about them no longer needing to.

When Ukraine’s military situation deteriorates even further and Western support dries up, Zelensky will either step down or be replaced from within, probably unalived. No Maidan required...

At this rate the Rada will deal with him before America gets to it. As I understand it, he was pretty much on his way out in Jan 2022.

Blame everything on the ((funny Odessan)); start afresh on a settlement. It's Eastern Europe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[John Spectre]

War is already lost, while battlefield looks the same in December 2022 and March 2025
unbeatable russian army

 

[PassinBy]

Honestly, trade Luhansk for the rest of Kherson (maybe Melitopol), let them have a treaty road to Crimea, and everyone just* goes home.

* Complex demilitarised buffer zones, mutual arms restrictions, etc.

Admittedly, I'm saying this from a comfortable bar in Western Europe without 350 years of historical baggage...

 

[polonieth]

War is already lost, while battlefield looks the same in December 2022 and March 2025
unbeatable russian army

More typical diversion.

Wars are not won by rapid territorial changes alone, they are won by attrition, logistics, and sustainability.

Russian military doctrine has never been determined by lines on a map or timescales.

I think your map also shows the fact that Ukraine has not regained significant ground after two years of Western-backed offensives just highlights why this war is over: Russia has achieved strategic superiority.

Ukraine has burned through its best troops, suffers manpower shortages, and is facing economic collapse. The USA basically pays for everything...

It's over.

 

[John Spectre]

Ukraine provoked russia even in far 2008? Or maybe Mr putin lied and done it for a years?
But sure need to blame Zelenskiy that he don't wear suits or don't believe to words of putin or his facial expressions are not what should be.
So much questions to him and literally zero questions to another. Lol

 

[daniels27]

What do you do when you receive new information?

Make sure we don't trust the liars again.

 

[369]

oh, and for fans of stories about how the Maidan in 2004 and 2013 was easily bought by the USA.

Now the USA don't like Zelensky and his government, they want a change of power through re-elections.
And many Ukrainians don't support the president, that's true.

Why can't the USA organize another Maidan for cheap, in which they will overthrow Zelensky for force their wish of elections?

The police and the military won't go to protect Zelensky if he really has a 4% rating. that means everything should be very simple and fast. right?

Or maybe actual truth a bit different?

for the roosters who will say that during martial law it is illegal to hold meetings/rallies - well, it is also illegal to hold elections during martial law (it was written in the constitution long before Zelensky)

You are asking stupid question.

The easy answer Zelensky is going to make Ukraine a sale out but you still dont get it

 

[369]

War is already lost, while battlefield looks the same in December 2022 and March 2025
unbeatable russian army

did you ever saw the propral of russia to split ukraine ?
for them there is no need to take more land they already got the territory they wanted and it is way more than what they had in the beginning were they wanted to stop.so yeah great work ukraine you even lost more and about the lives of citizens i wont even mention,

 

[daniels27]

for them there is no need to take more land they already got the territory they wanted and it is way more than what they had in the beginning were they wanted to stop.so yeah great work ukraine you even lost more and about the lives of citizens i wont even mention,

Russia is big enough. "Want" is a very relative and stretchable term. Most people want as much as they realistically can get. It lies in the nature of every human being. The only way to counter this, is to clearly show that they cannot get more.

 

[369]

you know don't even argue with me if you have no level of geopolitical knowledge.
its annoying to read people like you who can only argue on the theoraticly base or emotional base.
They wanted it and NEEDED it for their security.
Would they not take east ukraine NATO could have depployed missles on the eastern border of ukraine which would be 400 km away from moscow.
Moscow would not even have time to react.

Try putting missles 400 km away from whasington and let me watch how they will accept it.
Just as comparison Washington is 2000 km away from Cuba and that was already a national threat to the US (with old rockets)


Crimea was taken because there is the russian Navy which controls the black sea.Without Crimea and the control over the black sea russia would lose because of the US Navy a war which means Putin would lose his support from miltary.
And that was the plan in 2014 CRIMEA