Chat control; An EU war against privacy - or - A noble war against CSAM (child sexual abuse material)

[mraleph]

The Hungarian rotating EU presidency - despite numerous dis-agreements with other member states and Commission, is pushing towards an EU regulation that will impose a mandatory content scanning on end users' devices - a chat control

https://www.euractiv.com/section/la...approach-to-eu-child-sexual-abuse-regulation/

A comment is offered by a professional with a governemt background

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/dutch-intel-service-csam-update/

Different studies show that a statistical average of individuals with pedophilic tendencies is estimated to be around 1% to 5% of the male population in European societies

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7460489/#:~:text=Approximately 1 to 5% of,offending against children [5].

On the other side, 2-62% of female and 3-16% of male population are assumed to be a victim of child sexual abuse

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)16771-8/abstract#:~:text=Child sexual abuse is a,16% of men as victims.

Child sexual abuse is a grim phenomena with detrimental and permanent consequences for victims

Content scanning for CSAM before the communication exchange with E2EE is catastrophic for not only privacy, but for fundamental human and civil rights.

Let's not comment the circulus vitiosus of molester and molested and religious and cultural determinants as precursors for creating a sexual offender and child molester nor whether the WhatsApp/Viber/Telegram/Signal etc. can be considered as a secure application - this is a matter of a principle, so let's discuss that.

Is EU idea a ruse or a noble one? What are anticipated developments? How will - if - that influence general and professional public?

Thoughts?

 

[daniels27]

I think the only point it could work is on the potential victims devices. Scanning on the devices of the subjects is useless as they will switch applications once scanning is known to happen.

The next problem you are facing is that the vast majority of child porn is made by and made for unsuspecting kids sharing their organs in an attempt to win another kid's heart.

Which brings us down to the fact that they are actually looking for a child surveillance tool rather than something for adults. From that perspective yes, you could do this as long as the parents play along and lock down their kids devices.

But for the intended purpose, I deem it not very effective as it will just lead to a shift in apps and devices used. And that at a huge cost of privacy, security and any basic right that the EU claims to give it's people what all their enemies don't.

 

[bountymounty]

The Hungarian rotating EU presidency - despite numerous dis-agreements with other member states and Commission, is pushing towards an EU regulation that will impose a mandatory content scanning on end users' devices - a chat control

I hope it never comes so far in my time of live.

 

[daniels27]

I hope it never comes so far in my time of live.

It is like with the iPhone in Japan where you cannot turn off the camera shutter sound. You just buy it elsewhere.

Those measures all won't work the way they are intended. They work for some idiots but not for the criminals.

But the problem is that the ones they are trying to get are criminals and they are on the tor network for ages already.

 

[EliasIT]

Isn't it he same like what CloudFlare already has inside their services, just for websites

 

[bubbledouble]

one thing is to scan a website another to scan peoples devices!

 

[Forester]

Thoughts?

Many, many highways to bottommost pits of hell are paved by good intentions...

 

[JohnnyDoe]

History repeating itself.
For example, look at the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People, passed on February 28, 1933:

 

[aniglo22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
.
Instrumenting children to fulfill someone's crazy surveillance dreams.

 

[mraleph]

History repeating itself.
For example, look at the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People, passed on February 28, 1933:
View attachment 7994

Yes, Europeans live in a cradle of knowledge and are pretty poor students - Historia magistra vitae est. It is also a cradle of fascism and Nazism - and other extremist ideologies.

So auto-censorship is imminent because this time, despite resistance, chat control advocates have a probability of success.

I don't think any particular social phenomena, whether criminal or pathological or both, justify massive societal control.

So after the terrorist attacks, we have AML regulations. Now, after pedophile rings are in focus, we get educational and verbal control - thought crime. Having first lost financial freedoms, we are now losing freedom of speech and assembly.

What is the endgame - a wet dream of European fascists to restore an Reich or Holy Roman Empire - because the next phase is movement control with biometric enforcement.

What will OCT do if – when chat control is enforced?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

What will OCT do if – when chat control is enforced?

I offer to host it in my place in Russia.

 

[GF150]

Yes. Bis repetita placent. If EU looks just like a makeshift construction, it's because it's analyzed from its own narrative's point of view. Of course, it's apparently good for nothing when referring to its official goals and reason of existence. In truth, it's a very well designed tool, working for the self-appointed globalist elite and, of course, against peoples and their countries. Like every well-designed trap, its real purpose must remain unnoticed as long as needed and, when it snaps shut, its spring must be faster than any human's reaction. When people eventually notice what EU is for, it'll be too late and the coming tyranny will be nothing like what we saw in the 20th century, except for 1984 (not quite sure, though).

 

[mraleph]

I offer to host it in my place in Russia.

Considering that international community is contemplating the network restrictions against Russian segment of the Internet if a US thing does not happen in November, your offer may prove to be a little bit an up-hill battle. You may establish tunneling with proper providers though. Beside that, Russia imposes internal network restrictions. So, you would be between a hammer and a hard rock.

Seriously, what will happen with OCT if the chat control is imposed?

 

[GF150]

Got a strike:
"This is disrespectful (and useless) for many users who cannot understand your content."
OK, so be it:
Two carefree birds: let's fly, friend, it's time!
To the distant white mountain that hides in the sky,
To the faraway ridges of ocean tides,
To a place where the wind only goes...and I!"

 

[GF150]

Considering that international community is contemplating the network restrictions against Russian segment of the Internet if a US thing does not happen in November, your offer may prove to be a little bit an up-hill battle. You may establish tunneling with proper providers though. Beside that, Russia imposes internal network restrictions. So, you would be between a hammer and a hard rock.

Seriously, what will happen with OCT if the chat control is imposed?

Chat control ! Did you say chat control ? No way! Impossible.

 

[0xDEADBEEF]

I wrote something about this not too long ago:

0

Post in thread 'Majority for chat control possible – Users who refuse scanning to be prevented from sharing photos and links'

Jun 2, 2024

It is a fantastic idea to scan all chat communications when the justification is child pornography, as it is clear to me that there is a need for this.

Unfortunately, I also know that such very strong justifications, which cannot and should not be argued against, are then used as an opportunity to scan chat communications for all sorts of other things. Once the law is passed and the systems are reprogrammed for it, no one will notice that the EU is now scanning for all sorts of other things.

But on the other hand, it is no secret that the NSA and various other authorities are already...

• 0xDEADBEEF

• 
• 

Let's entertain the notion that the incompetent EU propagandists manage to implement a technical solution. It would likely be compromised before it even goes live. Given that there are always exceptions to such rules, the next logical question is: how will they verify these exceptions?

A system like this requires tying a user’s identity to a chat or device. To "reliably" achieve this, they would need to enforce KYC-like procedures for every app/device they intend to scan. The most troubling aspect? Looking around, it’s easy to spot people who seem all too willing to hand over their IDs without a second thought.

From my experience working with ISPs and financial institutions, these companies don't have their act together when it comes to handing over data. Sure, they collect it, but try organizing it. Now imagine this on a massive scale with hundreds of millions of identities. It's a recipe for chaos without jailing a single Cheese Pizza lover.

FYI: https://therecord.media/dutch-police-state-actor-breach.

 

[mraleph]

Got a strike:
"This is disrespectful (and useless) for many users who cannot understand your content."
OK, so be it:
Two carefree birds: let's fly, friend, it's time!
To the distant white mountain that hides in the sky,
To the faraway ridges of ocean tides,
To a place where the wind only goes...and I!"

Why are Pushkin verses in Russian language disrespectfull and a discussion about residence in Russia isn't Романтические стихи. Милый Пушкин. I read those verses and attempted to reply but a post was deleted. I'm not on anybody's side, Russian one included - but if you received that comment, I would be disgusted

Remember, the wars come and go. Hatred stay. And destroys the hater I don't hate all Germans because some of them killed 99% of my family. And I love German language, literature and culture. Likewise for Russian.

Who commented that!?

The Pushkin verses you cited are actually quite related to this thread. And the comment you received is also related - inversely as it's a form of extremism that is creating a furnace where all our liberties will burn because some people are offended

 

[daniels27]

Got a strike:
"This is disrespectful (and useless) for many users who cannot understand your content."

Chat control already started? Can you post a link to the original Russian version?

 

[Forester]

Why are Pushkin verses in Russian language disrespectfull and a discussion about residence in Russia isn't Романтические стихи. Милый Пушкин. I read those verses and attempted to reply but a post was deleted. I'm not on anybody's side, Russian one included - but if you received that comment, I would be disgusted

Remember, the wars come and go. Hatred stay. And destroys the hater I don't hate all Germans because some of them killed 99% of my family. And I love German language, literature and culture. Likewise for Russian.

Who commented that!?

The Pushkin verses you cited are actually quite related to this thread. And the comment you received is also related - inversely as it's a form of extremism that is creating a furnace where all our liberties will burn because some people are offended

It was my intervention.

And I have written to @GF150 when removing the post:
---
Please, note and respect that this is an English speaking forum and avoid posting in any other language, even if it's well meant (I understand the text). This is disrespectful (and useless) for many users who cannot understand your content. Regardless of existence of (inaccurate) machine translators, searching becomes impossible, etc.
This has nothing to do with any ideology or politics.
Thanks!
---
So I am afraid that there is a deep misunderstanding. I fully agree that Pushkin's thoughts are really valuable. The problem is that an user of this forum cannot be expected to understand Russian (as well as any language different from English). And really, machine translators do not solve this. Try to translate this text of Pushkin with Google translate (unfortunately, frequently used), it's a disaster. (I understand Russian fluently.)

So sorry, I must insist, according to the forum rules, on removing any non-English post, regardless of its content...

Chat control already started?

Yes, here a long ago – but hopefully not in the way that is discussed here from the beginning

Can you post a link to the original Russian version?

Yes, this is fully acceptable and will be much appreciated. The Russian original is, in my opinion, really nicer than @GF150's translation (although the latter is definitely better that the translations of DeepL and Google – I have checked). (Well, it's a really hard task to translate poetry.)

 

[mraleph]

It was my intervention.

And I have written to @GF150 when removing the post:
---
Please, note and respect that this is an English speaking forum and avoid posting in any other language, even if it's well meant (I understand the text). This is disrespectful (and useless) for many users who cannot understand your content. Regardless of existence of (inaccurate) machine translators, searching becomes impossible, etc.
This is nothing to do with any ideology or politics.
Thanks!
---
So I am afraid that there is a deep misunderstanding. I fully agree that Pushkin's thoughts are really valuable. The problem is an user of this forum cannot be expected to understand Russian (as well as any language different from English). And really, machine translators do not solve this. Try to translate this text of Pushkin with Google translate (unfortunately, frequently used), it's a disaster. (I understand Russian fluently.)

So sorry, I must insist, according to the forum rules, on removing any non-English post, regardless of its content...


Yes, here a long ago – but hopefully not in the way that is discussed here


Yes, this is fully acceptable and will be much appreciated. The Russian original is, in my opinion, really nicer than @GF150's translation (although the latter is definitely better that the translations of DeepL and Google – I have checked). (Well, it's a really hard task to translate poetry.)

I do not have any problem with content moderation nor will discuss anybody's authority - I'm not an anarchist.

There is an ongoing war - our children will probably learn about it as WW3 - between the Russia, China and their satellites and the West. A nuanced approach is required where there are pro-Ukranian and pro-Russian OCT members as well as Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian.

Those verses are related to liberty and in a symbolic way are depicting these dreadfull moments in our common history - moments when we lost our liberties and plunged into violent hatred.

So, I addore Lebanese cuisine and like Dabke dance, but will remain an agnostic and atheist despite my origin and eat hummus as well - and never forget the history I share with people of my origin. I will also read Faust and Idiot again. And Gibran's verses.

As a multi-lingual person, you have a comparative advantage over others and understand that if somebody can't comprehend some content, that is a problem of that person's cognition.