Can't provide proof of origin?

[daniels27]

I contacted a local lawyer I know and he had solved problems like this many times. He made a plan and will pitch me that next week.
Citizenship of a small island country and bank account at hsbc and he has a company that wants to buy my btc.

If you are willing to move, you just need a visa from one country, leave Germany and then you can contact @nurredon @providenceventurer @JohnnyDoe to offramp. Just get a visa, don't do any citizenship by investment nullshit, it will hurt you.

For the source of funds see here. I explained it earlier already. You need to sell your cars in any case as you need to leave Germany

D

Post in thread 'Crypto high 6 fig with no source of funds no tax returns looking to offramp'

Dec 24, 2024

Buy a used car, sell it in cash and add some more.

Buy some cryptos with cash, sell them use the transaction record to withdraw the money from coinbase to 5 different bank accounts.

Move some money offshore to an account. Repeat. But a plot of land, build houses, sell it.

• daniels27

• 

 

[Kadinger]

I agree, all other is just plain waste of time.

This is something I've actually been waiting for.
I actually made myself a Mentor Gold membership with a new account shortly after my post, but found absolutely nothing useful there and regretted it very quickly. My post there also got the same vague replies as here only without the references to the paid membership. In fact, a user wrote to me privately there who obviously wanted to scam me. Incidentally, someone who has already been mentioned in this thread.

 

[Kadinger]

If you are willing to move, you just need a visa from one country, leave Germany and then you can contact @nurredon @providenceventurer @JohnnyDoe to offramp. Just get a visa, don't do any citizenship by investment nullshit, it will hurt you.

For the source of funds see here. I explained it earlier already. You need to sell your cars in any case as you need to leave Germany

D

Post in thread 'Crypto high 6 fig with no source of funds no tax returns looking to offramp'

Dec 24, 2024

Buy a used car, sell it in cash and add some more.

Buy some cryptos with cash, sell them use the transaction record to withdraw the money from coinbase to 5 different bank accounts.

Move some money offshore to an account. Repeat. But a plot of land, build houses, sell it.

• daniels27

• 

We are not talking about a few hundred thousand dollars. I have significantly more BTC. How many cars should I buy and sell to create a history?
Yes, you can still buy cars from private individuals in cash, but every bank deposit by the seller will result in a demand and that may work a few times, but not hundreds of times.
And to be honest, I don't want to take any risks, it really pisses me off that I can't simply dispose of my legally acquired cryptos like that. In the meantime, I even wish that this one-year tax exemption didn't exist, then I would have just paid some of the tax and would have every single tax return as proof today... But no, it was tax-free and therefore I never had to fill out a tax return.
Over 10 people can testify that I've been in BTC since 2011, but it's no use to me because the fucking bank destroyed their records after 10 years... But now I'm supposed to provide proof of something that happened so long ago...

If I had bought shitty Pokemon cards back then, nobody would be asking about SoF today either, but the EVIL EVIL Bitcoin...

Rant over

 

[JohnnyDoe]

I actually made myself a Mentor Gold membership with a new account shortly after my post, but found absolutely nothing useful there and regretted it very quickly.

Perhaps you didn’t search well enough?

My post there also got the same vague replies as here only without the references to the paid membership.

It doesn’t help to use two different usernames.

In fact, a user wrote to me privately there who obviously wanted to scam me.

How do you recognize an obvious scam?

Incidentally, someone who has already been mentioned in this thread.

Interesting, because it wasn’t me, so there are only two other names left

 

[daniels27]

And to be honest, I don't want to take any risks, it really pisses me off that I can't simply dispose of my legally acquired cryptos like that.

You can always dispose them. It you got them one year, you can sell and declare. The block chain is public and I am pretty sure that your can find the proof of the bitcoins going into your wallet. If you used a bank or whatever, they also hold an records for more than one year and can assure that your hold them 1+ year.

Unfortunately, I also played with xmr from time to time, and I still hold “dash” somewhat. At times I also sold everything for cash and bought it again later.

That's the problem. Contrarily to your post above, you did not declare anything and your coins this aren't legally acquired but illegally.

We are not talking about a few hundred thousand dollars. I have significantly more BTC. How many cars should I buy and sell to create a history?

How much money can you spend per year? Median salary in Germany is like 40k EUR per year, actually much less after taxes. Just cash out a bit and be happy. Your coins are all illegal as you haven't declared your gains in the past. The punishment is that now you cannot use fancy cars to attract girls. Time to get smart to win their heart!

As a bonus, read my full answer. There is a better option. Trust me, you'll get enough girls elsewhere without the need for fancy cars. And Brazil also die not care what your declared where in your past life. They take your and your bitcoins stunning you paid taxes in the past.

 

[cherry]

I understand your frustration. The governments are so neurotic about people's money and even more about people's crypto. This leaves you with a problem even if you didn't do anything wrong.

I can't see any better option than to buy a property with your BTC then sell the property. Best to do it in a BTC friendly country and buy from a BTC friendly seller. You could even sell the property for BTC and now you have SoFs.

A quick Google brought this list for buying with BTC. But there are probably better countries for what you need.

Sorry I can't be more help than that.

 

[daniels27]

This leaves you with a problem even if you didn't do anything wrong.

The problem is that he did something wrong. He did not declare his crypto sales. Which he must in other for the tax free to apply.

I can't see any better option than to buy a property with your BTC then sell the property. Best to do it in a BTC friendly country and buy from a BTC friendly seller. You could even sell the property for BTC and now you have SoFs.

This won't help. He needs to leave the country.

He can do whatever he wants, his wealth remains illegally undeclared in Germany.

 

[Kadinger]

You can always dispose them. It you got them one year, you can sell and declare. The block chain is public and I am pretty sure that your can find the proof of the bitcoins going into your wallet. If you used a bank or whatever, they also hold an records for more than one year and can assure that your hold them 1+ year.


That's the problem. Contrarily to your post above, you did not declare anything and your coins this aren't legally acquired but illegally.


How much money can you spend per year? Median salary in Germany is like 40k EUR per year, actually much less after taxes. Just cash out a bit and be happy. Your coins are all illegal as you haven't declared your gains in the past. The punishment is that now you cannot use fancy cars to attract girls. Time to get smart to win their heart!

As a bonus, read my full answer. There is a better option. Trust me, you'll get enough girls elsewhere without the need for fancy cars. And Brazil also die not care what your declared where in your past life. They take your and your bitcoins stunning you paid taxes in the past.

Simply wrong...

I don't understand how you can make such statements when you have no idea about the legal situation in Germany.

First of all, a crypto sale (or coin swap) is considered a "privates Veräusserungsgeschäft" (private sale).

Profits must be taxed at your personal income tax rate. Profits remain tax-free up to the exemption limit of €1,000 or if sold after the speculation period of one year.

This means that gains from a sale after a holding period of less than one year trigger a taxable event. Such an event and ONLY such an event must be included in the income tax return (which is also not mandatory if there was no such event and under other conditions).
Again: Sales with a holding period of more than one year do NOT have to be included in the income tax return (nor should they be).

Furthermore, my coins are not “illegal”. Even if I were to pay everything out to my account now, it would be sizeable, but not illegal.
For them to be illegal according to the GWG, a criminal offense would be necessary with which they were obtained, but this is then up to the authorities to prove and that is impossible, since no such offense has taken place.

And as I've said before, banks have to keep business documents relating to customer relationships for 10 years, and as I've already asked the bank in question, they no longer have anything of mine.

At the moment I spend about 100-150k a year.

 

[Kadinger]

The problem is that he did something wrong. He did not declare his crypto sales. Which he must in other for the tax free to apply.

He can do whatever he wants, his wealth remains illegally undeclared in Germany.

Read again.

 

[Kadinger]

I understand your frustration. The governments are so neurotic about people's money and even more about people's crypto. This leaves you with a problem even if you didn't do anything wrong.

I can't see any better option than to buy a property with your BTC then sell the property. Best to do it in a BTC friendly country and buy from a BTC friendly seller. You could even sell the property for BTC and now you have SoFs.

A quick Google brought this list for buying with BTC. But there are probably better countries for what you need.

Sorry I can't be more help than that.

It is definitely not up to date.

Turkey, for example, does not allow payments with cryptocurrencies.
In Thailand, as a foreigner, you need proof that the payment was made from abroad. Apart from the difficult situation of being able to buy real estate as a foreigner. (land ownership)

At the moment I am trying to restore my old HDD, which has a defect, there should still be an Electrum Wallet with movements from 2014 and earlier. Apart from that, the “blockchain” is of little use to me because I had 2 cross-chain swaps in each cycle (BTC - ETH - STABLE - BTC - ...) and always used new hard disks after each cycle because I was worried that one would die...
As it just happened to me in 2014, if I could restore the wallet, I could prove my time of purchase and there would also have to be a high 3-digit btc on it...

Otherwise, I'll listen to my lawyer's pitch.

 

[daniels27]

Profits must be taxed at your personal income tax rate. Profits remain tax-free up to the exemption limit of €1,000 or if sold after the speculation period of one year.

Ok, and you only did exempt trades in the past? From your posts, I understood that this was exactly not the case. If this was the case, they you are free to go as you do not have any tax problems.

The problem is that he did something wrong. He did not declare his crypto sales. Which he must in other for the tax free to apply.

Thanks. Seems correct. Seems in Germany, really no reporting at all is required if you hold for over one year. I wonder how this should work in practice. But seems that in the end it would have been in your own interest to docment the trades somehow as now, it gets quite difficult.

I think for a fruitful discussion, transparency is key. Are there any transactions which would have been taxable? If not, your only problem now is to reconstruct the transactions (or at least part of them to legalise it). I would recommend you to start with a spreadsheet and list all gains there. You will then get an overview how much of the total is missing and where there are gains (especially in the early stage) which are justifiable by your gifted BMWs and other non-reportable casual gifts by relatives and friends.

 

[daniels27]

I actually made myself a Mentor Gold membership with a new account shortly after my post, but found absolutely nothing useful there and regretted it very quickly. My post there also got the same vague replies as here only without the references to the paid membership. In fact, a user wrote to me privately there who obviously wanted to scam me. Incidentally, someone who has already been mentioned in this thread.

There was only one guy, but he claimed to be from a different country. In any case, I think you deserve better replies here. But we are facing the lawyer problem: Any answer can only be as good as you describe the situation.

Even if they are good, their advice cannot be better than how complete you tell them you situation. And you may miss more than you think.

What is your problem? You have only legally acquired and taxed crypto that you need proof of the source? Or do you have anything that is either not taxed or illegally acquired?

 

[Kadinger]

Ok, and you only did exempt trades in the past? From your posts, I understood that this was exactly not the case. If this was the case, they you are free to go as you do not have any tax problems.


Thanks. Seems correct. Seems in Germany, really no reporting at all is required if you hold for over one year. I wonder how this should work in practice. But seems that in the end it would have been in your own interest to docment the trades somehow as now, it gets quite difficult.

I think for a fruitful discussion, transparency is key. Are there any transactions which would have been taxable? If not, your only problem now is to reconstruct the transactions (or at least part of them to legalise it). I would recommend you to start with a spreadsheet and list all gains there. You will then get an overview how much of the total is missing and where there are gains (especially in the early stage) which are justifiable by your gifted BMWs and other non-reportable casual gifts by relatives and friends.

Exactly. I would actually have liked to switch between ETH and BTC more frequently, but didn't because of the holding period.

I also hold some bulls**t like IOTA with a current value of maybe 10k.

I used to buy and sell via bitcointalk, sometimes Ebay (it's been a really long time). For example, I still know a user to whom I once sold a few hundred BTC on Bitcointalk, who is still active. But those were the days when we used to meet in a cafe and philosophize about Bitcoin. I once bought Bitcoin from another guy in his IT office after work, for example, and I can still remember which building it was and roughly which office.
I come from that time, but much later I also met people where I had a bad feeling afterwards about what they were either doing with my BTC or where their BTC came from, so at some point I stopped meeting new people and once chased everything through Monero and Dash out of nervousness.

My only problem today is how to cash out? Initially borrowed 10k, money was transferred to me by my grandpa with a contract (I know his account number, his bank documents and the contract were embezzled, but I know where they are and the police were informed about it a year ago, nothing happened). My bank says it no longer has any documents.
Basically, I am responsible for all the movements of my grandfather's account over the last 10 years and have managed everything, which ensured that my own documentation also suffered somewhat...

If there were still some left after an official request because I was under investigation, that would only be to my advantage. From this account I bought hardware with one part (diablo 3/wow gold farming, later crypto mining), transferred one part to ebay etc and bought btc and paid out one part in cash and bought btc with cash.
In addition, my grandfather sometimes transferred 40k, sometimes 30k etc to car dealers or for other stuff of mine, which I sold back in cash after use or when I wanted something new. I still have contracts for some of it, and the police even have some of it because they had already investigated it. But all the vehicles were registered and insured in my name or that of my grandfather, so there are records of them.


I have to say that my grandfather's childless brother-in-law was very rich and profited massively from the reconstruction after the Second World War through a well-known company, but he died early and the assets were divided among my family, except for my strand, because a family member cheated my mother.

leaving germany for good, let alone brazil, is out of the question for me. i'm also engaged and children are on the way soon. I don't see a problem for a while, even several years in Cyprus, Malta, Montenegro, Spain or as a perpetual traveler would be ok, but the option to return must be there.

 

[daniels27]

Ok. This sounds all manageable. I think a very big question in what do you want to invest in and how much. That will most likely define the best options to go.

To be honest, having 10+ millions and neglecting documentation is a problem (and it definitely was wrong doing so). You should now spend some time in gathering as much information about your trades and assets as possible. Putting it in a spreadsheet with buying price and date as well as strong price and date. And any other information. Have you used your own bitcoin wallet?

You will also need to check whether you "inherited" more than tax-free at any point it whether and transaction was otherwise uncool in terms of money laundering. It is important to assess all potential risks properly.

 

[Kadinger]

Ok. This sounds all manageable. I think a very big question in what do you want to invest in and how much. That will most likely define the best options to go.

To be honest, having 10+ millions and neglecting documentation is a problem (and it definitely was wrong doing so). You should now spend some time in gathering as much information about your trades and assets as possible. Putting it in a spreadsheet with buying price and date as well as strong price and date. And any other information. Have you used your own bitcoin wallet?

You will also need to check whether you "inherited" more than tax-free at any point it whether and transaction was otherwise uncool in terms of money laundering. It is important to assess all potential risks properly.

I would like to put the amount that brings me a return of around 150k per year after inflation and taxes into real estate (long-term and holidays respectively) and ETFs, the rest in crypto.

In my opinion, the countries that are in question here are Croatia, Cyprus, Montenegro and Spain. With the annual returns I like to invest in real estate in Germany, because I have very good contacts to investors and craftsmen.

Donation tax allowances (which would be relevant here) are very high and have never been exceeded. In doubt, one could still calculate a fictitious nursing salary for me and there would be in doubt the deceased (and therefore his heirs) in tax evasion, not I.

However, my transaction list currently only goes back to the beginning of the current cycle, so about 5 months before the last halving because there I am completely back from dash and usdt in btc since the one change in eth (exactly 370 days after the last change, because of the tax exemption). Yes I have always used offline/hardware wallets for everything.
Only a few tens of thousands are still on a stock exchange, which I can not get to because last year when trying to pay out suddenly wanted SoF.

 

[daniels27]

Ok but you have details about the transactions before that?

Do you have all wallet addresses you used? Do you still have the hardware wallets? Because then, it technically would be possible to reconstruct the transactions you made by analysing the blockchain. (Or am I missing something here?)

 

[JackAlabama]

I would like to put the amount that brings me a return of around 150k per year after inflation and taxes into real estate (long-term and holidays respectively) and ETFs, the rest in crypto.

In my opinion, the countries that are in question here are Croatia, Cyprus, Montenegro and Spain. With the annual returns I like to invest in real estate in Germany, because I have very good contacts to investors and craftsmen.

Donation tax allowances (which would be relevant here) are very high and have never been exceeded. In doubt, one could still calculate a fictitious nursing salary for me and there would be in doubt the deceased (and therefore his heirs) in tax evasion, not I.

However, my transaction list currently only goes back to the beginning of the current cycle, so about 5 months before the last halving because there I am completely back from dash and usdt in btc since the one change in eth (exactly 370 days after the last change, because of the tax exemption). Yes I have always used offline/hardware wallets for everything.
Only a few tens of thousands are still on a stock exchange, which I can not get to because last year when trying to pay out suddenly wanted SoF.

id wait a bit more (maybe 2 years needed only from here on) until Europe has to do the MEGA reform.
At the moment, they are like the sovjets before right the end by doubling down on the failed policies (climate, energy, dei whatnot, mica and whatnot the list of failed policies is longer than my stack of toilet paper).

so the current program in the eu is still eating the rich (bc someone must fund this all) and you're asking for it to be on the menu if you become visible. Especially Germany has some nasty bureaucracy and the average level of income is very low compared to your numbers.

 

[ikan]

Kadinger,
obvously you are still young and not experienced with your tax home country.
1) be very precaucious with your lawyer
2) for the tax man you are faudulent, no matter your SOF.
3) your lawyer could blackmail you. Even report you !
4) you did not declare any income taxe, neither your crupto gains => it is fraud in germany.
5) taxman can still pretend Flat Tax on 3 years past gain (not the income).
6) you are on high values : taxman can decide to charge you for volontary tax abuse with a 50% or higher penalities
7) You can be prosecuted to court and face jail sentences. You situation is a criminal + tax offence by german law.
8) you spend 100/150ke per year for your daily expenses / but no yearly income tax declaration.
Beware your taxman can tax you over the last 3 years, by reconstituting at his method "what is you yearly earnings" for spending so much in for personnal expanses. Plus penalities or taxe abuse.
figure this : taxman will dertiminate over 500 keuros income over the 3 years, than claim the income tax at the highest rate, plus penalites, plus volontary tax abuse.

Solving your crypto Sof will not make you snow white in your home country.
Cause you were and keep on tax fraud - all the way -
1 single solution : go to delcare to the taxman your 1.000.0000 or 3.000.000 euros gains on crypto. Paid huge amount of several layers of taxes => and then start to leave sage in you home country.

Kadinger, I don't want to offense you with the above, and I have no bad emotions about you.

Because you are young, and still student, you "keep to be below radars".
Good for you now. But will not last ever. You way of life and yearly spending can attract big worries on the long term in your home country.
Did you think about this : buying several properties in Germany with your Sof funds but taxes uncleared, and paying cash to the Notary.
Notary will directly report you to the german Taft/Gafi. Than later burden occurs with the taxman and financial police department.

Did you ever think about your scale of gains/profits in germany, taxes uncleared : it is a "criminal offence" by german en EU laws, not only a tax matter.

Kadinger : your were provided here some quite good advices from contributors.

Beware Kadinger : your are not safe the way you do your dayly or yearly linving.
You Plant too many Flags of "Youth Mistakes" in your home country Germany.
All those mistakes are "jesus blood" for your taxman and his friend the financial police.
Alxays keep in mind : Tax Office in Germany is Smart !

As a father to son I will write and resume you :
1) I will not sleep at night beeing in germany in your situation : my tax burdens is now just too heavy-risky.
2) I won't care as you do about my Crypto Sof : it does not solve my tax burden, and way of life.
3) child on the way : I plan quickly to born my kid in another juridiction (targeting legal second citizenship for my kid(s) - of course I declare to Germany the birht of my kids.
4) Establish my tax residence in another friendly country (but Not European State). And start to build my life from ground zero.
5) even if nowdaysI you fly below radars / I cut ties with Germany for 5 years.
6) only after I will invest in Germany in some real estate : most probably as non german resident.


I end : I don't want ot offense you with any of my words.
You must go on higher scales of precautions and self-protections.

 

[daniels27]

4) you did not declare any income taxe, neither your crupto gains => it is fraud in germany.

He lives in Germany. They do not tax crypto gains if you hold them for more than 1 year. I also was under the impression that you have to report those gains in the tax declaration, but @Kadinger was right and you actually do not. Still, it would have been his duty to somehow have proper documentation. I would call it a bit dump, but there is no requirement to do so. It will just be a lenthy timewaster in court but unless they can prove otherwise, I expect him to run free.

 

[Shadow Atlas]

I would like to put the amount that brings me a return of around 150k per year after inflation and taxes into real estate (long-term and holidays respectively) and ETFs, the rest in crypto.

In my opinion, the countries that are in question here are Croatia, Cyprus, Montenegro and Spain. With the annual returns I like to invest in real estate

We are not talking about a few hundred thousand dollars. I have significantly more BTC.
And to be honest, I don't want to take any risks, it really pisses me off that I can't simply dispose of my legally acquired cryptos like that.

leaving germany for good, let alone brazil, is out of the question for me. i'm also engaged and children are on the way soon. I don't see a problem for a while, even several years in Cyprus, Malta, Montenegro, Spain or as a perpetual traveler would be ok, but the option to return must be there.

You can consider the unrecognized country of Northern Cyprus. The reason why it's interesting is because it can't share information with your German government via Common Reporting Standards, due to Germany not recognizing that it exists. It is easy to move cryptos into banks, tax free. And since the banks are almost all subsidiaries of Turkish banks, you can automatically request a Turkish bank account as well.

It's a work-around that many European crypto investors use; they set up a Northern Cypriot freezone company, hire an accountant who performs creative accounting, and provide documentation to their governments that the money came from business activities on the island or in Turkey. You would add yourself as a director of the freezone company, which gives you a "paper residency" on the island (i.e. you don't have to actually relocate there long term, you don't need to buy a property).

I made a video on Youtube on this subject, you can check it out if you want.

I understand your frustration - I had the same issue with SoF when buying gold bullion with money from crypto gains... that's why I recommend to go down this route if you want to create a legit paper trail for your funds.

Hope this helped.