Talking about Poland and Going to Jail for 50 Dollar Printer at Home...

[lagloriacubana]

I have been looking into Poland for various personal reasons and on paper everything matches my requirements. However, when I read thing like....

@Don A friend of a friend got a criminal sentence (I repeat a criminal sentence, not a civil penalty) because he happened to keep one 50-dollar printer that was on the balance sheet of the company at his home office.

@cionide Yes, this country is absolutely terrible to do business in. If not tax authority, then prosecutor, if not prosecutor then government regulations. Everyone is throwing s**t under your feet so you fail... not only do business people have s**t like this on their heads, I can also forget the sun exists until around April. I've been looking at houses in Cyprus lately.

@Marie Manila
Joking aside, really stay away from Poland.
I have already had a bad experience myself.
If they block your money, you can deem it as a donation to the government.

@cionide
Some tech company does well, some sheriff prosecutor wants to make a name for himself and issues arrest warrant. In Poland it is enough for prosecutor to sign a document and you get 6am raid in house. No judge needs to order it, no judge reviews it. He is free to do whatever he wants, evidence or not. He has to go to court to get 3 months temporary arrest but in most areas the judges have 90-100% in favor of the prosecutors request for temporary arrest. After arrest, they like to make giant media campaign of their great success in fighting organized crime. The arrest gets extended potentially for years and then finally guy gets released, *quietly* found not guilty and after 20 years of court battles get some bulls**t compensation after losing company, family and everything. Prosecutor that was wrong gets nothing. Previous government even removed "fruit of the poisoned tree" from criminal law so even illegal evidence or evidence obtained outside of correct procedures can be used. This has happened dozens of times. At this point every fucking "loud" arrest is suspicious to me.

I know some people have recommended Poland for IPBOX etc for taxes but honestly - everyone should stay the f**k away from this country. The justice system here makes you miss the mafia from the 90s. Running a successful business here will in the long term earn you nothing other then PTSD.

As @Forester wrote in the other thread we should start a new thread and I am doing that.

Can we discuss Polish business environment a bit further? I was thinking of having the company mostly for customer support employees (for substance) and for a company car (which I am ok to pay tax on as fringe benefit). I am comparing it to Latvia where it might be much more expensive to build substance (there are way more potential employees in Poland) and higher corporate car tax (annual usage tax of approximately 2000 euros).

Any input is welcome. Most of incoming money would be from US companies and expenses would be employees and local office.

 

[HeinzKetchup69]

Damn. Any source for this?

 

[lagloriacubana]

Damn. Any source for this?

I am quoting messages from this thread: https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/zen-com-and-crs.45465/page-2#post-328582

@Don would be the best person to quote a source because although I know many people from Poland, been there plenty of times, love Warsaw but am still alarmed reading what was written…

This book was also referred in the thread: https://ksiazka.wprost.pl/polowanie

 

[HeinzKetchup69]

Well I guess this put Poland out of place as a place to live.

Would Serbia or Bulgaria be any better or worse?

 

[EvokeMe]

It seems Bulgaria is a very suitable country for this. Some of the lowest taxes in the EU. When providing services outside VAT = 0%. Car tax for a company is about 100 EUR per year.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Well I guess this put Poland out of place as a place to live.

Would Serbia or Bulgaria be any better or worse?

Did you ever visit any of these places (not just as a tourist) or are you just coming up with random options based on some “taxation in Europe” table?

 

[lagloriacubana]

Well I guess this put Poland out of place as a place to live.

Would Serbia or Bulgaria be any better or worse?

Well that’s the thing - I am not looking to stay, I am looking to solve very specific requirements for my specific situation.

Although I love Warsaw and I have been to Poland hundreds of times. If you are looking for a place to stay - it is is extremely safe and it’s definitely way more first world than most places. But I used lived in a neighboring country for almost 15 years and I have had enough of winters.

I cannot comment much on lifestyle for Bulgaria or Serbia - but I looked at Bulgaria purely from business perspective and it looks on paper criminal liabilities are higher on paper. But then it is also an extremely corrupt place. And it seems costs of setting and maintaining substance is much higher too. Which brings to an even bigger problem - banking seems pretty bad in Bulgaria from a friend’s personal experiences. Them being on FATF Grey List is another issue.

Serbia - my only experience has been though a few support staff I have hired there. Very smart and hard working people but I don’t know anything about lifestyle.

 

[friedrich5000]

From my experience it's not bad doing business in Poland. I Had some ecounters with sanitary inspector or tax officer but they were friendly and we managed to resolve the issue peacefully. Bad things mentioned in the other thread - personally I don't know anybody that have had such a terrible experience. These people complaining so much - Often they are tax evaders that got caught and cry afterwards

I don't know how it compares to Serbia or Bulgaria though, maybe you can find cheaper labour and lower taxes there.

 

[lagloriacubana]

I am not joking.. however, it's not something that happens to the majority, and if you search, you can find more interesting "cases" from the forum.
In my view, Polish people are quite advanced in using offshore structures, and for a good reason.

Ok for sake of reference and posterity I am going to quote another post @Don made in another thread because it is relevant to the discussion here.

 

[lagloriacubana]

From my experience it's not bad doing business in Poland. I Had some ecounters with sanitary inspector or tax officer but they were friendly and we managed to resolve the issue peacefully. Bad things mentioned in the other thread - personally I don't know anybody that have had such a terrible experience. These people complaining so much - Often they are tax evaders that got caught and cry afterwards

I don't know how it compares to Serbia or Bulgaria though, maybe you can find cheaper labour and lower taxes there.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Serbia is non eu so it’s out of question for my purpose. Bulgaria also doesn’t really fit the bill and cost savings will be defeated by other expenses I do if I go that route.

But for general discussion it seems that if you actually want to hire people (which I do) then Poland offers better opportunity because way more qualified people there than Bulgaria. So that’s another positive for Poland in my case.

 

[Don]

I have been looking into Poland for various personal reasons and on paper everything matches my requirements. However, when I read thing like....









As @Forester wrote in the other thread we should start a new thread and I am doing that.

I was thinking of having the company mostly for customer support employees (for substance) and for a company car (which I am ok to pay tax on as fringe benefit). I am comparing it to Latvia where it might be much more expensive to build substance (there are way more potential employees in Poland) and higher corporate car tax (annual usage tax of approximately 2000 euros).

I don't see much issues with your setup.
Assuming you won't personally be a resident there, and the company will have a minimum level of assets / profits, you have mitigated most risks.

 

[Houdini]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Serbia is non eu so it’s out of question for my purpose. Bulgaria also doesn’t really fit the bill and cost savings will be defeated by other expenses I do if I go that route.

But for general discussion it seems that if you actually want to hire people (which I do) then Poland offers better opportunity because way more qualified people there than Bulgaria. So that’s another positive for Poland in my case.

I understand it correct you are going to want to live in Poland for tax reasons ?

 

[lagloriacubana]

I understand it correct you are going to want to live in Poland for tax reasons ?

No, completely opposite. I am not going to live in Poland.

 

[manukahoney]

Estonia for IT-related, Latvia for fintech.
At least that was the way a few years ago.
Poland is OK if you need to work with local market, otherwise it's not the friendliest jurisdiction and you will have troubles finding English-speaking employees. Poland is a relatively big country with strongish local market, so while it benefits local SMBs it also affects the mentality - people refuse to think globally, refuse to learn other languages and generally tend to isolationism. Which also makes it safer and nicer country to visit or stay for a while.

 

[Houdini]

No, completely opposite. I am not going to live in Poland.

I understand, sorry got confused then.

 

[friedrich5000]

Poland has a reduced CIT of 9% for companies with revenue below 2m eur annually. Guess you can open two companies if your revenue is like 3m 9% is low for a EU country
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/corporate/taxes-on-corporate-income

 

[lagloriacubana]

Poland has a reduced CIT of 9% for companies with revenue below 2m eur annually. Guess you can open two companies if your revenue is like 3m 9% is low for a EU country
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/corporate/taxes-on-corporate-income

Yes, that was one of the things which got me looking into Poland in the first place. But then my trading setup is already in place so that is not much of an advantage.

However as a place for staffing and to keep a car (which I can use across Europe) it is a very good place.

In any case I have decided to proceed further with Poland. This is just one piece of the overall puzzle.

 

[EliasIT]

May I ask, how do you plan to do this in practical terms? You don't want to live in Poland, but you want to hire people there through a Polish company you set up, and then drive around in a car with Polish license plates? Or are you planning to live in Poland for a short period?

In any case I have decided to proceed further with Poland. This is just one piece of the overall puzzle.

 

[lagloriacubana]

May I ask, how do you plan to do this in practical terms? You don't want to live in Poland, but you want to hire people there through a Polish company you set up, and then drive around in a car with Polish license plates? Or are you planning to live in Poland for a short period?

Yes. By living I mean my full residency/tax residency. I already spend time in Poland. I am a national of a neighboring country and it is my transit route. I usually take extra 3-4 days in Warsaw for rest and catching up with friends - at least 4 times per year. Other than that it is often trips for weddings/birthdays etc. So it usually ends up being few weeks every year.

I have had staff in Poland in past as contractors and experience was very good - and on my trips I see how many students are there who are good support candidates. I will have to spend more time, but not to have a house or to live live there.

 

[dziter]

I have been to Poland hundreds of times. If you are looking for a place to stay - it is is extremely safe and it’s definitely way more first world than most places.

and catching up with friends - at least 4 times per year. Other than that it is often trips for weddings/birthdays etc. So it usually ends up being few weeks every year.

But then my trading setup is already in place so that is not much of an advantage.

I am in a similar situation. I already lived in Poland few years in the past. Except the cold winters, I loved it. I never see anything better matching my lifestyle in EU for now. Much better than 'western EU'. Cheaper, nice people, lots of services and amenities and english is widely spoken (better than in the west). Poland the last few years is not the Poland of the past anymore. Many people start to notice it.
Strong economy, will be the 1st army of EU soon, great infrastructure etc.
I do not spend more than few weeks on the ground there but recently secured a 10 years residency there.

Most of my activities are related to IT/SaaS/freelancing etc. I was considering the IP box regime (cheaper and faster to get in Poland than in let's say Cyprus for example).
I am just worried in the future, they might somehow change their mind retrospectively ...

I find the accounting + ZUS expensive though.
But I do like the juridiction reputation, banking sector etc compared to Cyprus & Malta for example.

I also have an existing setup (we can take Cyprus or Malta as example). I am now wondering if it makes sense to:
- spend few months per year as lifestyle and the rest in my tax residency juridiction.
pros: no change of the setup
cons: personal stability: 1 more base

- make the existing company dormant or closing it, opening a company in Poland with IP Box regime. Or should I just keep the existing EU company and operates from there? I guess it will be more headaches to try that ...
pros: not scared about not paying taxes there if I spend more time on ground
cons: I think I might pay more taxes than what I pay now and might regret this choice in the future and it will be harder to change the tax residency again.

@lagloriacubana : I will be happy to get more info about what you are doing or if you recommend any accountant/professional or mind to share some quotes (DM is fine).
Thanks.

people refuse to think globally, refuse to learn other languages and generally tend to isolationism.

I have completely opposite experience. But I do like if most of people believe that