Trading crypto - which country?

[MrTambourineBTC]

Hey there

I made a thread a year ago. Summary:

I am a crypto investor/trader living in Spain. I am a former professional poker player and have got better and better at trading and that's what I want to do for the next year. Got hit hard btw by FTX fall a few days ago

My plan was moving to Portugal, play some poker and win perhaps 15-20k€ to be able to justify my "main source of income" as a professional poker player rather than crypto, then dedicate the rest of my time to trade and pay 0% on both my poker and trading gains.

But I see now they are going to tax 28% unless you hold your coins for over a year. So I really see no way how could I trade in Portugal.

1-Do you think it would be possible to make it work in Portugal through some loophole?

I don't have a ton of legal cash. I have ~15k€ max taxed, legal cash, and then the rest is low 6 fig in anonymous crypto wallets.

So buying 15k€ worth of BTC/ETH with my "legal" money, hedging it and holding it for a year, which would be somewhat pain to keep the hedge open for a year, then close hedge and sell BTC/ETH for fiat, would net me 15k in crypto tax free money in a year. That's not a good plan. That's s**t.



2-What do you recommend me? Perhaps another country? Spain is considered as hell in this forum, but 21-23% if you make under 200k€ I don't think it's that terrible??

Any other ideas where I pay less than 20% are welcomed. Creating a society/LLC if it's not too fake/illegal or too complicated I could consider it too. Any idea is welcome and I will search into it, I still have 1 month and a half to think it through, research and make a decision.



I will most likely stay in Spain, pay taxes here, risk getting caught by some past years (never have paid taxes but also never did anything bad/obvious involving Spanish bank accounts, so chances are I won't get a fine, yet still would rather avoid by simply going away for 4-5 years), but just in case like I say I'd rather leave, though I wouldn't leave for a very far away country or very expensive country! Portugal would have been ideal, just relatively short driving distance or even Madeira, just a short flight. I wouldn't go to a cold place like Germany, or an expensive country like Dubai, or a shithole, or do tons of complicated stuff and leave abroad just to pay 12.5% or something.


Any countries or strategies I should know of?


Thank you a lot offshore people.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Sadly, you seem to be destined to end like the boiling frog.
Think twice about remaining in the UE, then run away fast. Plenty of options outside the futureless Ursulaland.

 

[pucecacou]

Andorra baby. Nice quality of life unlike Dubai. Has been running stable on low tax all-in (social included) and is bound to continue. Blockchain law is being released. Blockchain association. Blockchain conference. Easy day to day stress free life in a village-like country.

 

[denniz07]

A lof of people are moving to Dubai. Guess the question is what you want to do long-term. If you transfer all your money to Dubai and then want to move back to spain, you may get some issues as well regarding the source of wealth and so on.

Right now I think one of the best solutions might really be to open a company honestly. Then you could claim your money is from your company. Tax ist not everything. You should also be able to cash out.

I don't have a ton of legal cash. I have ~15k€ max taxed, legal cash, and then the rest is low 6 fig in anonymous crypto wallets.

That is a problem. Not sure how to resolve it. You may forget nearly every European bank since you would have to prove your source of wealth. AND even with a prove it might take a long time to be onboarded.

Guess if you want really optimize it out. I would pick up Singapure. Not sure about taxes, but as far as I know you can create an offshore and control it from there. The offshore will be taxed by 0%.
That seems to work. But no personal expriecnce.

 

[CyprusLawyer101]

Have you considered transferring your crypto trading operation into a company with attractive tax features?

 

[void]

Have you considered transferring your crypto trading operation into a company with attractive tax features?

is there a legal/compliant setup if UBO is Spanish tax resident?
I mean if he is not willing to leave Spain and operation/decision making related to the business is done from Spain?

 

[CyprusLawyer101]

is there a legal/compliant setup if UBO is Spanish tax resident?
I mean if he is not willing to leave Spain and operation/decision making related to the business is done from Spain?

You will have to comply with Spanish CFC rules. It therefore becomes dependable on a number of factors but in general Spanish CFC rules are rather light and in compliance with EU freedoms.

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

Sadly, you seem to be destined to end like the boiling frog.
Think twice about remaining in the UE, then run away fast. Plenty of options outside the futureless Ursulaland.

Not everything in life is about money or low taxes...

Andorra baby. Nice quality of life unlike Dubai. Has been running stable on low tax all-in (social included) and is bound to continue. Blockchain law is being released. Blockchain association. Blockchain conference. Easy day to day stress free life in a village-like country.

Too cold!

A lof of people are moving to Dubai. Guess the question is what you want to do long-term. If you transfer all your money to Dubai and then want to move back to spain, you may get some issues as well regarding the source of wealth and so on.

Right now I think one of the best solutions might really be to open a company honestly. Then you could claim your money is from your company. Tax ist not everything. You should also be able to cash out.



That is a problem. Not sure how to resolve it. You may forget nearly every European bank since you would have to prove your source of wealth. AND even with a prove it might take a long time to be onboarded.

Guess if you want really optimize it out. I would pick up Singapure. Not sure about taxes, but as far as I know you can create an offshore and control it from there. The offshore will be taxed by 0%.
That seems to work. But no personal expriecnce.

You're right you need to be able to bring money back eventually and not have troubles. TBH I hadn't put much thought into it, that's another layer of complexity!

Have you considered transferring your crypto trading operation into a company with attractive tax features?

Not much but seems like an attractive option! If you have some concrete suggestions I'm all ears! Something that's not too shady preferably lol

is there a legal/compliant setup if UBO is Spanish tax resident?
I mean if he is not willing to leave Spain and operation/decision making related to the business is done from Spain?

Not sure what you're referring to.... I am willing to leave Spain! Although there are not a ton of places I'd go to. Not cold in the winter (andorra or germany for example), not in the middle of nowhere/too far away...

You will have to comply with Spanish CFC rules. It therefore becomes dependable on a number of factors but in general Spanish CFC rules are rather light and in compliance with EU freedoms.

I don't know what that is but I guess I will have to look into it! I still have one month to decide.

 

[pucecacou]

Too cold !

You've got 2 different residency status (active / international business & passive) which allow you to pass 275 days abroad...

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

You've got 2 different residency status (active / international business & passive) which allow you to pass 275 days abroad...

Ok I looked into it and it's for people that make waaay more money than me lol

 

[Rome]

Hey there

I made a thread a year ago. Summary:

I am a crypto investor/trader living in Spain. I am a former professional poker player and have got better and better at trading and that's what I want to do for the next year. Got hit hard btw by FTX fall a few days ago

My plan was moving to Portugal, play some poker and win perhaps 15-20k€ to be able to justify my "main source of income" as a professional poker player rather than crypto, then dedicate the rest of my time to trade and pay 0% on both my poker and trading gains.

But I see now they are going to tax 28% unless you hold your coins for over a year. So I really see no way how could I trade in Portugal.

1-Do you think it would be possible to make it work in Portugal through some loophole?

I don't have a ton of legal cash. I have ~15k€ max taxed, legal cash, and then the rest is low 6 fig in anonymous crypto wallets.

So buying 15k€ worth of BTC/ETH with my "legal" money, hedging it and holding it for a year, which would be somewhat pain to keep the hedge open for a year, then close hedge and sell BTC/ETH for fiat, would net me 15k in crypto tax free money in a year. That's not a good plan. That's s**t.



2-What do you recommend me? Perhaps another country? Spain is considered as hell in this forum, but 21-23% if you make under 200k€ I don't think it's that terrible??

Any other ideas where I pay less than 20% are welcomed. Creating a society/LLC if it's not too fake/illegal or too complicated I could consider it too. Any idea is welcome and I will search into it, I still have 1 month and a half to think it through, research and make a decision.



I will most likely stay in Spain, pay taxes here, risk getting caught by some past years (never have paid taxes but also never did anything bad/obvious involving Spanish bank accounts, so chances are I won't get a fine, yet still would rather avoid by simply going away for 4-5 years), but just in case like I say I'd rather leave, though I wouldn't leave for a very far away country or very expensive country! Portugal would have been ideal, just relatively short driving distance or even Madeira, just a short flight. I wouldn't go to a cold place like Germany, or an expensive country like Dubai, or a shithole, or do tons of complicated stuff and leave abroad just to pay 12.5% or something.


Any countries or strategies I should know of?


Thank you a lot offshore people.

Did you find a solution? I don't know why you are thinking it's illegal to do what you have been doing. Sounds like you weren't evading taxes but just not up to date about the tax laws?