Revolut 2024 auto CRS-

[pixbix]

I recently experienced something quite strange with my Revolut account. I noticed that Revolut started automatically performing CRS checks on me because I have an American phone number for 3D Secure , so they reporting my account to US, under FACTA even if i was never in USA. I keep this number because I can easily port it anywhere from phone to phone, computer,etc, online SMS, etc . Also they reported me in Portugal, where I had an address during my vacation, but i haven't lived there a lot also.

Now I can't delete this information and they are asking for additional documents like proof of residence, a copy of my passport with entry and exit stamps if i stayed less than 180 days, to remove me., and I don’t know what to do.... as in Europe i can move freely and in US i never was. I'm not a tax resident in any of these countries, but they assume the information about myself might suggest otherwise. I have about $100,000 in that account and I'm worried about what might happen.


I’m not sure if there will be any issues, especially since I’ve never dealt with these tax systems before. Will they IRS of portugal/USA consider this a system error, pr they will begun sending me papers after paper , or contact revolut to close down my account for "fake info" for example, eve if revolut selected this ? I don’t want to provide a fake SSN or TIN just because Revolut is pushing me to in order to "continue using your account". I’m from another European country and I’m not working at the moment, but I’m worried they’ll misunderstand everything. Thanks god they haven't report me to my home country’s authorities, yet. I hope US/Portugal won't do it. As I said, it's all from past, past business, i don't even have papers on.

Is the end of the year and I can’t delete this information, and now they’re asking me to click a button confirming that I’m a US citizen in order to continue with "removal of US tax residence"...
. I’ve decided to record a video just in case, so I don’t get accused of 'forgery and use of forgeries' as a bonus.

Has anyone experienced something similar? What should I do? How bad it will be if they will send this to portuga? Most of the money out there are over 4 years old, so they can't tax it, but i was reviving dividends also in my stock broker account and i don't want to pay them extra. 15% tax in USA, and i don't want to be taxed the difference of 28-15%=13% in Portugal as well.

 

[pixbix]

I can't remove any tax residence: Portugal or US., they ask me for VISA entry stamps that i stayed below 180 days

 

[Martin Everson]

I recently experienced something quite strange with my Revolut account. I noticed that Revolut started automatically performing CRS checks on me because I have an American phone number for 3D Secure , so they reporting my account to US, under FACTA even if i was never in USA. I keep this number because I can easily port it anywhere from phone to phone, computer,etc, online SMS, etc . Also they reported me in Portugal, where I had an address during my vacation, but i haven't lived there a lot also.

CRS reporting and indicia is something I have talked about for years on this forum many many many times on here since 2018. Just search "indicia" under my name on forum. Anyway it is clear that Revolut has correctly implemented CRS and FATCA as required. Meaning they ran a automated trace for indicia on their accounts like all banks have to do.

Post in thread 'Why not get a bank account, transfer money and then close it before end of year to avoid reporting?'

Jan 3, 2018

fyi Most credible banks have CRS/FATCA enabled banking platforms. This means banks will report your account whether you change address, close the account etc. They will report even if you show "indica" meaning any sign of a foreign phone numbers or mailing addresses etc in another country. Opening and closing an account during the year will not work unless you are using a bank with a cheapy banking platform with no FATCA/CRS reporting functionality built in. In which case the bank is manually producing the CRS report and may miss closed accounts.

A zero balance reported is not the end of...

• Martin Everson

• 

Has anyone experienced something similar? What should I do? How bad it will be if they will send this to portuga? Most of the money out there are over 4 years old, so they can't tax it, but i was reviving dividends also in my stock broker account and i don't want to pay them extra. 15% tax in USA, and i don't want to be taxed the difference of 28-15%=13% in Portugal as well.

Nothing you can do now other than wait and explain your case to the reported countries tax authority if and when they get in contact with you. Indicia is an important part of CRS and also for FATCA as I explained numerous times on the forum. You can understand more about it in below link.

CRS Indicia search to determine the Residence​

https://www.aldic.net/crs-indicia-search-to-determine-the-residence/

Will they IRS of portugal/USA consider this a system error, pr they will begun sending me papers after paper , or contact revolut to close down my account for "fake info" for example, eve if revolut selected this ?

As I said above they may well look into you as $100k is not small money at all. If they do then it will come via paperwork to address on record for you to complete as they don't generally accept verbal explanations or email explanations as you may know. It is important you do not ignore any mail like I did when I left an old UK address on an account. In my case UK HMRC issued me with fines that racked up over time which I discussed in another thread.

I can see Portugal just sending you a letter saying you failed to file a tax return and work out the facts from there. That's what HMRC did to me. And by law in my case if they send you a tax return to complete you must complete it even if you have to enter zero values and say you were not resident in that country that year . That's what I had to do in end with HMRC for a stupid admin oversight of not changing address on my UK account that I had from when I was a UK non-dom years ago.

P.S Don't panic just do what Revolut asks of you. Oh and be ready to explain to any tax authority approaching you (not guaranteed they will anyway) where you are actually tax resident.

 

[pixbix]

They want an Portuguese and USA SSN/TIN or a photo with my "visa stamps"....Support is useless..so i will let them send info without a tax ID? the address is from a hotel , on a Portugal beach....
won't they assume i am just another nomad, turist and leave me alone?

 

[pixbix]

what do you mean "money back" ?

 

[Martin Everson]

won't they assume i am just another nomad, turist and leave me alone?

No

 

[pixbix]

a lot of problems have this kind of problems with Revolut now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Revolut/comments/1bgxhzc/revolut_keeps_asking_to_update_tax_id_for_a

"Even worse for me - I'm in Bulgaria (EU country), have set the Bulgarian tax residency, my account is 5 years old with no change whatsoever, and since end of February Revolut is constantly asking me to add an USA tax number, that i never had. And to top that, there is not even an option "can't provide one now", and im getting emails that my account will be suspended. Chatted few times with support, they even logged 2 bug reports on my behalf, one is set to resolve, the other is still pending, but the problem persists. By the time they fix it, i guess my account will be suspended for not providing something i never had."


same here :

https://www.reddit.com/r/Revolut/comments/1c1ezf5/tax_residence_glitch

 

[pixbix]

"

To everyone on this thread, go back to your profile > tax residencies. You'll see the country there listed as a tax residency and it cannot be deleted. I've raised an article 16 request for rectification which Revolut have refused, they even sent compensation whilst claiming that it is expected functionality. Even if you input 'I pay taxes in another country', having a country which is not a tax residence reported as a tax residence could cause problems. Doing what you're suggesting does stop the notification, but having a country which is not a tax residency saved on your profile as a tax residency isn't good."

 

[Martin Everson]

I agree there is a use case issue with Revolut software I guess that if someone enters a US number on account and it needs to be reported under FATCA it does not necessarily mean they have a TIN/ITIN etc to enter. It will still be reported but user should not be forced to enter something they don't have. Same applies to CRS and wrong address on file. CRS reporting can take place without Tax ID as its not a manadatory field.

FYI

----quote start

CRS Indicia search to determine the Residence​

A Reporting Financial Institution may not rely on a self-certification or Documentary Evidence if the Reporting Financial Institution knows or has reason to know that the self-certification or Documentary Evidence is incorrect or unreliable (Section VII (A) of the CRS). It should proceed to permanent residence address test based on documentary evidence or the FI would need to determine the residence on the basis of an indicia search. A self-certification (and/or documentary evidence) would be needed in case of conflicting indicia, in the absence of which reporting would be done to all reportable jurisdictions for which indicia have been found.

If the Reporting Financial Institution does not rely on a current residence address for the individual Account Holder based on Documentary Evidence as set forth in subparagraph B(1), the Reporting Financial Institution must review electronically searchable data maintained by the Reporting Financial Institution for any of the following indicia and apply subparagraphs B(3) through (6):

1. identification of the Account Holder as a resident of a Reportable Jurisdiction;
2. current mailing or residence address (including a post office box) in a Reportable Jurisdiction;
3. one or more telephone numbers in a Reportable Jurisdiction and no telephone number in the jurisdiction of the Reporting Financial Institution;
4. standing instructions (other than with respect to a Depository Account) to transfer funds to an account maintained in a Reportable Jurisdiction;
5. currently effective power of attorney or signatory authority granted to a person with an address in a Reportable Jurisdiction; or
6. a “hold mail” instruction or “in-care-of” address in a Reportable Jurisdiction if the Reporting Financial Institution does not have any other address on file for the Account Holder.

--- quote end

 

[SCHLOSSFINANZ]

go to a notary public and ask him to make certified copies of ALL passport pages (incl. cover and data page) in english and file that with Revolut as proof.

 

[Martin Everson]

Revolut is trying to do its IPO in US I believe. They don't want smoke with IRS for having clients that could be US persons using their service and hiding....lol. They want to ensure they comply with FATCA even if false positives come up.

https://accessipos.com/revolut-stock-ipo/

The UK/US FATCA agreement is clear on indicia. See Annex 1 page and read fully. You can prove you are not an American by completing a W-8 BEN form and sending to Revolut perhaps. Maybe they will accept this as this what FATCA asks to be done. Not sure what you can do for CRS other than self certification...not looked. But you really don't want to deal with IRS even if you are in the right [in this case].

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/FATCA-Agreement-UK-9-12-2012.pdf

---- quote start

B. Review Procedures for Preexisting Individual Accounts With a Balance or Value as of December 31, 2013, that Exceeds $50,000 ($250,000 for a Cash Value Insurance Contract or Annuity Contract), But Does Not Exceed $1,000,000 (“Lower Value Accounts”)

1. Electronic Record Search. The Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution must review electronically searchable data maintained by the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution for any of the following U.S. indicia:

a) Identification of the account holder as a U.S. citizen or resident;

b) Unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth;

c) Current U.S. mailing or residence address (including a U.S. postoffice box or U.S. “in-care-of” address);

d) Current U.S. telephone number;

e) Standing instructions to transfer funds to an account maintained in the United States;

f) Currently effective power of attorney or signatory authority granted to a person with a U.S. address; or

g) An “in-care-of” or “hold mail” address that is the sole address the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution has on file for the account holder. In the case of a Preexisting Individual Account that is a Lower Value Account, an “in-care-of” address outside the United States shall not be treated as U.S. indicia.

---- quote end

 

[daniels27]

@Martin Everson thank you for your report. How did the HMRC contact you when you were no longer at that address?

Also, when you mention all this, don't you think that in the general case countries just discard CRS reports of non-residents? I mean, many banks nowadays report to your citizenship country even if not tax resident. IMO, it is just disregard. Also IRS discourages filing W-9 for non-residents but there normally is no problem as I suppose that they get millions of 1099s per year from banks for non-residents.

What is you experience on this?

 

[Martin Everson]

@Martin Everson thank you for your report. How did the HMRC contact you when you were no longer at that address?

My old landlord decided it was a good idea to ask how I was doing over a year later and dropped into conversation that I had a letters from HMRC that arrived half a year ago and should he forward it. That's when drama started . Just wish he told me earlier. This is why they say you should give HMRC a forwarding address after you leave to avoid this type of issue.

What is you experience on this?

I have had banks insist I complete a W8-BEN even when I am not investing in US security. The W8-BEN stays with the bank anyway it does not go to IRS unless they ask for it. The bank or broker just wants signed paperwork on record as evidence your not a US Person aside from any WHT benefit it may give you.

Countries can decide what they do when they get a CRS report i.e in Bahamas it goes straight in bin due to no taxes. But I don't think Spain, Portugal or Italy etc [all cash strapped countries] would necessarily do the same. If you have a bank account with a Portugal address on it that is reported then the tax man in Portugal is gonna wanna know what is happening on a $100k reported balance.

Also I don't know about Portugal repercussions but in UK £25,000 in avoided taxes is considered a serious tax offense punishable by up to 6 months in prison. I discussed it this here in 2022. In my case I did nothing wrong and could prove I had left the UK years earlier. However I still had to complete a tax form and pay the penalty as the penalty was for failure to file the SA100 form that I did not need to complete. But as I stated if they send you one you must complete it or contact the HMRC hotline immediately and get it cancelled [ something I could not do due to time that passed]. Worse case I could have ignored everything as I assume a lot of people do. But HMRC publishes public name and shame lists of deliquent tax payers which could screw my record ift hey decide to assess how much tax and penalities is owed by themselves .

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ddd/current-list-of-deliberate-tax-defaulters


P.S Happy new year to everyone . And folks please learn that keeping old/wrong address details or foreign debit card mailing address or phone numbers on a bank account can open a can of worms that can become very invasive down the line. Indicia in CRS and FATCA is real.

 

[churumbelo]

This happened to me like a year ago. I opened the Revolut account back in 2018 already living in a country which is not my home country (both in the EU), but I opened the account with my phone number from my home country. Last year, out of the blue, after been using Revolut with my tax residence in this other country where I lived, they added to the list of tax residencies my home country and they requested a tax ID.
I contacted them since I could not remove it from the list. I explained them that because I am citizen of the country A, that does not mean I am tax resident there since I had been living in country B for 7 years, and that's the tax residency I used for opening the account too. After back and forth messages for some time, because they still wanted my tax ID for my home country, which I have but I did not want to provide, they still wanted it. I told them I do not want them to report via CRS that I am tax resident in country A when clearly I am not, for years. Then they told me to select the option: "I cannot provide this information/documents/tax ID (can't really remember the wording)" and by doing so my home country tax residency disappeared from the list. Ever since I haven't been asked again about it.

 

[daniels27]

P.S Happy new year to everyone . And folks please learn that keeping old/wrong address details or foreign debit card mailing address or phone numbers on a bank account can open a can of worms that can become very invasive down the line. Indicia in CRS and FATCA is real.

I never filed anything in the UK. Does it make sense to call them and ask if they need anything from me annually?

 

[JackAlabama]

I never filed anything in the UK. Does it make sense to call them and ask if they need anything from me annually?

Well, largely depends on the amount.
As in good communist practice, reports should not portray excess wealth (vastly exeeding those of the admins). Otherwise they do "show me the person and I show you the crime".
Given todays common practice, banks often want a tax id and a "address from home country", crs getting more and more useless as its sent widespread.
I have a few bank accounts where i have to assume they report home bc being hellbent on address/id from home country.

But nevertheless theres nothing one can do just to abandon banks to the bare minimum and keeping in mind, the big balances belong in a Bitcoin address which does not report to the communists.

 

[daniels27]

I think maybe it you keep below 2000 GBP, they will leave you in peace.

 

[Martin Everson]

I never filed anything in the UK. Does it make sense to call them and ask if they need anything from me annually?

Yes you can call HMRC hotline and ask if there is any outstanding communication related to tax filings you need to complete. You only really need to do this if your address has changed over the years. If not then any issues they would contact you with what they have on record.

P.S Ok we are well off topic. Lets get back to topic...thx