Payoneer / firstpaychoice and Automatic data exchange from OECD

[LisaSimpson]

Do you know if the Payoneer and firstpaychoice accounts will be reported to the country of residence of holder in the context of Automatic data exchange (CRS) from OECD?

 

[LisaSimpson]

Sorry, i wanted to mention firstchoicepay.com not firstpaychoice.

 

[SoFast]

Do you know if the Payoneer and firstpaychoice accounts will be reported to the country of residence of holder in the context of Automatic data exchange (CRS) from OECD?

according to several users on this forum and some OECD reports published in the threads it seems they are forced to do so!!

 

[LisaSimpson]

I have contacted them through the support center and i will share what their answer

 

[LisaSimpson]

There are two kind of accounts that are tremendously different from each other individual and company. If you open a company account (which requires a bank transfer), your local tax authorities will have difficulties asking you for money. For instance, if the company is from Belize or BVI, and if you have a credit card for it, you can say that it is the credit card of the company.
I have investigated further and found that in Europe, local tax authorities can't do much if they can prove that some money has been transfered to a European country.
Then, if you live in a high tax country in West Europe or North America, the local tax authority may ask you to justify your lifestyle. If you buy expensive items like a big car or a big house.

 

[LisaSimpson]

i just wanted to mention that if you have a company account at payoneer or firstchoicepay, even if it is reported to your local tax authorities, the local tax authorities can't prove anything because there is no bank transfer to your country of residence. Also, you can use the payoneer credit card because everything can be considered to be expenses for the company. Furthermore, the company is an offshore company, so the local tax authority can't ask anything about it.
The company account is the answer for everything. It is the same for advcash, worldcore... That's why it is worth spending time for due diligence to open a company account.

 

[SoFast]

Are you sure that's the way it works? I know from my local tax office that they can ask and will do so what ever they think they need to know. If you fail to provide the information they will bring you to court and fine you heavely!

 

[Talyn]

There are two kind of accounts that are tremendously different from each other individual and company. If you open a company account (which requires a bank transfer), your local tax authorities will have difficulties asking you for money. For instance, if the company is from Belize or BVI, and if you have a credit card for it, you can say that it is the credit card of the company.
I have investigated further and found that in Europe, local tax authorities can't do much if they can prove that some money has been transfered to a European country.
Then, if you live in a high tax country in West Europe or North America, the local tax authority may ask you to justify your lifestyle. If you buy expensive items like a big car or a big house.

Really ?
To think that tax office's people are monkeys is the worst strategy for planing your tax optimization.

In case if you transfer more than 10k from an offshore to an European country, the bank will report it, then the tax office will come and most probably a bunch of not funny guys who will start to tell you things like: "money laundering".

"i just wanted to mention that if you have a company account at payoneer or firstchoicepay, even if it is reported to your local tax authorities, the local tax authorities can't prove anything because there is no bank transfer to your country of residence."

Really?
They just have to argue that the central management lives in the country, therefore your profits have to be taxed in the country. End of the story. Pay the tax, pay the fine and depending of your country an the amount, you'll have to do some time in a nice facility.

"Also, you can use the payoneer credit card because everything can be considered to be expenses for the company. Furthermore, the company is an offshore company, so the local tax authority can't ask anything about it. "

Seriously? Please, could you take a look on what is "a company's expense" ? and what are eligible company's expenses?

To summarize that concept: It's the money spent or cost incurred in an organization's efforts to generate revenue, representing the cost of doing business.
A 2 weeks holidays in Brazil paid with your company's credit card is not a company's expense, and should be taxed.
A 4 days business trip in Brazil to visit your employees paid with your company's credit card is a company's expense.

I agree, the local tax office of an offshore company doesn't care, but in case of a tax investigation in your home country, you can't tell them "guys, I bought 20 tom ford tailored suits, it's a company expense's.", it's not, they will just reintegrate it in the profit before taxes.

And that's why guys, if you have an offshore, you really should have an accounting system and pair all the operations with your company's bank account... In case of a tax investigation of your own country, it could reduce the size of the freaking amount of the tax/fine to pay.

To conclude: all what you said will surely lead to a tax investigation, or worse. You should pay a visit to a tax lawyer, just to speak with him about what you're planning to do, nothing personal against you, but it could really help you.

Anyway, I'm far from an expert.

 

[LisaSimpson]

Really ?
To think that tax office's people are monkeys is the worst strategy for planing your tax optimization.

In case if you transfer more than 10k from an offshore to an European country, the bank will report it, then the tax office will come and most probably a bunch of not funny guys who will start to tell you things like: "money laundering".



Really?
They just have to argue that the central management lives in the country, therefore your profits have to be taxed in the country. End of the story. Pay the tax, pay the fine and depending of your country an the amount, you'll have to do some time in a nice facility.



Seriously? Please, could you take a look on what is "a company's expense" ? and what are eligible company's expenses?

To summarize that concept: It's the money spent or cost incurred in an organization's efforts to generate revenue, representing the cost of doing business.
A 2 weeks holidays in Brazil paid with your company's credit card is not a company's expense, and should be taxed.
A 4 days business trip in Brazil to visit your employees paid with your company's credit card is a company's expense.

I agree, the local tax office of an offshore company doesn't care, but in case of a tax investigation in your home country, you can't tell them "guys, I bought 20 tom ford tailored suits, it's a company expense's.", it's not, they will just reintegrate it in the profit before taxes.

And that's why guys, if you have an offshore, you really should have an accounting system and pair all the operations with your company's bank account... In case of a tax investigation of your own country, it could reduce the size of the freaking amount of the tax/fine to pay.

To conclude: all what you said will surely lead to a tax investigation, or worse. You should pay a visit to a tax lawyer, just to speak with him about what you're planning to do, nothing personal against you, but it could really help you.

Anyway, I'm far from an expert.

In the context of Belizean company, there is no corporate tax. Consequently, spending money from a credit card owned by a Belizean company does not have any risks as the Belizean government does not recover money for this Belizean company.

In high tax countries, tax authorities are not interested into tailored suits or food but expensive cars and expensive houses. If someone buys food with the credit card from a Belizean company, there is nothing the tax authority can do against this person. By the way, that's how many indian IT entrepreneurs work today. They have their payoneer credit card which is issued by a Belizean bank and they use it in India undercover.

 

[LisaSimpson]

@Talyn I would like to tell that Tax lawyer are useless. They give a fake impression of safety. I have been to several tax lawyers already and i had 3 versions of the same story with cross border transfers. So, then , i decided to read the law myself and i had a 4th version !

I understood that at the end of the day, i am legally responsible, not the tax lawyer.

 

[Paul77]

I completely agree with LisaSimpson. I mean how can my tax office in my country tell me how much I need to pay tax when they have no chance to get the information? I can earn how much money I want in to my belizean offhore company bank account and use the money as I wish even for the 2 weeks of vacation in Brazil. I don´t have any bank account in my country, I don´t even live there anymore and I live as a digital nomad. Courts? Where? Or tell me how to do it if all of this is just bad. What is the purpose of an offshore company and bank account then? I was lookiing in to this forum as a guest but had to log in and be able to reply or ask for advice. I think this is the right place. By the way my friends are earning aroun 10k a month from business online without even having a corporation or anything. They get money in to PayPal, Payoneer, 2checkout and withdraw in cash or just deposit in to their bank account in their home country. And they do this for at least 5-8 years. Nobody cares. All are from high tax EU countries. Nobody has time and resources to look in to it and ask questions. Too many people, too many companies too much work.

 

[LisaSimpson]

for your information i have posted the question on the payoneer community forum but no one answered me yet. I also sent the question to their support team.

If they have to report the accounts they will have to contact every user every year and ask them to confirm their TIN and their residency anyways. That's what happens right now with every bank. I have also read in the OECD standard reporting that they have to do it.

So if it happens, payoneer users should receive an email in 2017 about this from Payoneer. If it is the case, it means the account, the personal details related to it and the amount will be reported automatically. Until now, no emails have been sent.

 

[LisaSimpson]

If an email is sent from payoneer to check your tax residency, then you can decide to close the account or to organize yourself for the next tax reporting.

 

[negon]

Let's hope they will send that e-mail or post about it on their website! Most other providers don't do that they just report you!

 

[LisaSimpson]

@auric it is a requirement from the common Reporting standard. I know it because i have two banks in two different countries and both of them explained to me that according to the Common reporting standard (CRS), they have to contact their customers and ask them to confirm their residency.

Here is what i have received in Spanish from ING Espana:

Estimado xxxxxx

Como ya le informamos, en cumplimiento de la normativa CRS (Common Reporting Standard), normativa sobre identificación y comunicación de la residencia fiscal de titulares de determinadas cuentas financieras, necesitamos que actualice su país de residencia fiscal.

 

[basz]

I know firstchoicepay is new and payoneer transfered a lot of accounts to firstchoicepay. But are they still the same?

When I check the FAQ, I read: Firstchoice Pay is administered by Choice Bank. It looks like Choice Bank Ltd is the owner. Maybe they don't handle the Common reporting standard the same way.

 

[LisaSimpson]

I know firstchoicepay is new and payoneer transfered a lot of accounts to firstchoicepay. But are they still the same?

When I check the FAQ, I read: Firstchoice Pay is administered by Choice Bank. It looks like Choice Bank Ltd is the owner. Maybe they don't handle the Common reporting standard the same way.

I have found online the reporting guidelines sent to the banks. They state that every year, a message should be sent to bank customers to confirm their tax residency address.
Consequently, i am sure that if Choice bank reports firstchoicepay customers, they will have to send you a message before asking you to confirm your address as it is part of the reporting process.
Since Belize will start reporting in 2018, the message should be sent this year. If you don't receive any messages this year, it means their is no reporting in 2018.

How do i know it? I have one bank account in NL and one in ES. I received the messages at the end of last year and i know NL and ES start exchange information this year.

 

[chakka]

Hello I just signed up because I am interested.
I actually earn with online services and US company pay me directly by Payoneer.
I would understand better if Payoneer will report my data in 2018.
1) Payoneer is not a bank!!! is it correct? .. why should present the data?
2) Even if we have a Payoneer card, in real, we do not have a bank account opened in Belize with the choice bank, and neither in America with first Bank Century ... so ... I do not understand ...
a person who has Payoneer has not really a bank account in Belize or in america ... why should bring our data? how?

(sorry for bad english)

 

[chakka]

Hello I just signed up because I am interested.
I actually earn with online services and US company pay me directly by Payoneer.
I would understand better if Payoneer will report my data in 2018.
1) Payoneer is not a bank!!! is it correct? .. why should present the data?
2) Even if we have a Payoneer card, in real, we do not have a bank account opened in Belize with the choice bank, and neither in America with first Bank Century ... so ... I do not understand ...
a person who has Payoneer has not really a bank account in Belize or in america ... why should bring our data? how?

 

[LisaSimpson]

Chakka at the bottom of their homepage you can read:

"The Payoneer Prepaid MasterCard card is issued by Choice Bank Limited, Wirecard Card Solutions Ltd ("WDCS") WDCS is authorised by the Financial Conduct Authority to conduct electronic money service activities under the Electronic Money Regulations 2011 (Ref: 900051)), Payoneer (EU) Ltd, authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Commission, Gibraltar, or First Covenant Bank (member FDIC), pursuant to a license by MasterCard International Incorporated. MasterCard is a registered trademark of MasterCard International Incorporated."

Choice bank Limited and Wirecard solutions should report their real bank customers for sure, but i wonder if they should also report payoneer and firstchoice customers too.
As i said before, if it happens, they will send you an email about it.