EU pushing hard to subdue microstates... Andorra, Monaco and San Marino

marioIT · Dec 24, 2023

If you can't kill them, then make an offer they cannot refuse.

ANDORRA AND SAN MARINO
Background
On 16 December 2014, the General Affairs Council authorised the opening of negotiations for an Association Agreement with Andorra, Monaco* and San Marino.
The Commission took over the responsibility of these negotiations in January 2022.
In its conclusions adopted in June 2022, the Council called on the Commission to finalise the negotiations by the end of 2023.
And now it reached the end pending just referendum votes, you can find the full pdf here:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_6522
the agreement between EU and micro states like Andorra and San Marino will on paper give them easier access to EU market including financial services,

at the expense of:

At the same time, the Association Agreement will establish a framework to develop and promote dialogue and cooperation in areas of common interest, such as research and development, education, social policy, the environment, consumer protection, culture or regional cooperation.

Call me crazy but I know what happens when the EU puts its hands in those things... and I guess many of you also feel this way.

There will be a referendum in Andorra next year on this and I guess San Marino too. Local big political parties are pushing and spending hard saying literally they must "educate people" to vote yes, while minorities are talking about "de-andorrification".

SOME QUOTES FROM THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE:
https://andorraue.ad/en/faqs/

With the Agreement, Andorra will incorporate into its legal system an important part of European rules in many areas.
It will not be all European legislation, since some matters are excluded from the Association Agreement, and in some cases Andorra is negotiating adaptations of European legislation that will allow it to respect the country's specific characteristics.

Andorra will retain its sovereignty on key issues such as taxation, security and foreign policy.
In all other areas, Andorra will certainly adopt European regulations in accordance with the Association Agreement. It is fair to say that Andorra has been drafting its laws in recent years with Europe in mind. The reality of the country’s geographical, political and economic context means that the Principality's legislation is closely aligned with European legislation without, however, being equivalent to it or having had the opportunity to participate actively in the European legislative process. In this sense, the Association Agreement will bring reinforced sovereignty, since it allows Andorra to take part in the drafting of European Union rules and to sit, at the same level as the EU, on the Joint Committee established by the Agreement

How does the Association Agreement affect social rights in Andorra?
The Agreement includes a chapter on social policies, since the proper development of the internal market includes a social dimension. It should be stressed that this is an area of shared competence between the EU and the Member States, meaning that the EU establishes the minimum conditions to be guaranteed throughout the single market

What economic and human costs will the Association Agreement entail for the state?
One of the main concerns the public has in relation to the Association Agreement is the economic and human cost that implementation and operation will entail for the Andorran administration and society. The ongoing regulatory development of the EU internal market represents a considerable challenge. Existing structures will have to be modified and, in some cases, new ones created. The challenge is to transform this difficulty into an opportunity to improve the efficiency and professionalisation of the Andorran administration and business sector.

even the government on its website is pushing hard for this, it pretty much says that:

What will happen if the result of the referendum is negative?
In the event of a negative referendum outcome, the General Council will not ratify the Association Agreement. The Government considers that Andorra would find itself in a very delicate situation, because participation in the internal market would have been rejected and there would be no alignment of Andorran standards with European standards in such important areas as trade, environment, product safety or transport.

This would usher in a scenario of great uncertainty in which it would be unreasonable to think of reopening new negotiations and where Andorra would lack the tools to diversify its economy, open up to foreign investment and fit in with its immediate geographical environment.

For this reason, the current Secretary of State for European Affairs is working to: 1) negotiate the best possible agreement, 2) ensure that the public can adequately follow the progress of the negotiations and be duly informed in order to be able to vote in the referendum, and 3) create the necessary structures so that, in the event of ratification, Andorra will be ready to implement the Association Agreement.

ABOUT MONACO
*Note that Monaco was initially included in the negotiations, but "Monaco withdrew from the talks as they were unable to secure priority for their citizens in living and working, in other words sovereignty would be ceded to Brussels".
official MC gov statement
https://en.gouv.mc/Portail-du-Gouve...-Monegasque-delegation-led-by-Ms-Berro-Amadei

Following a frank and cordial discussion, those present reached a shared understanding that it was impossible to reconcile the requirements of the European Union with the red lines established by H.S.H. the Prince at the outset of negotiations.
These red lines aim to ensure that the current living, working and housing conditions of nationals and residents in the Principality are upheld.

Both parties agreed that the current mandate of the European Union did not allow these conditions to be met and therefore decided to suspend the negotiations.

one of the the red flags was that by accepting unlimited freedom of movement, potentially the EU could appoint their trojan horses in public positions of the Principality and slowly destroy the Principality sovereignty over time.
Plus foreigners applying for social benefits, housing etc

IMHO Monaco will be the last interesting one standing long-term.

Konstanz · Dec 24, 2023

So no more residents permit will be needed for Andorra for EU citizens?
I still don't clearly understand what difference this agreement to make for EU citizen setting up business or moving to Andorra?

JohnnyDoe · Dec 24, 2023

Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes

marioIT · Dec 24, 2023

Konstanz said:
So no more residents permit will be needed for Andorra for EU citizens?
I still don't clearly understand what difference this agreement to make for EU citizen setting up business or moving to Andorra?

the text of the agreement is still not public, not even drafts.
I heard that Andorra was able to get a transitory period of 2 years about free movement of people and visa/customs/border controls.
So after the ratification things will stay like now for 2 years, then things will change.
Referendum will be held in mid 2024. If it passes (likely) we're talking more likely 2026/2027 when real stuff will start changing.

the gov website says this:

The free movement of people makes it easier for Andorrans to work, live or retire in any European country under the same conditions as EU nationals.
The free movement of persons, one of the principles of the Agreement, makes it possible to work or stay in a European country more easily and with fewer obstacles than is currently the case.
The Agreement incorporates the same system of coordination for EU social security. This means that, abroad, Andorrans can enjoy the same rights and duties as nationals of the country where they work, and upon return both the Andorran citizen and his or her family accumulate the social benefits contributed abroad.
The coordination of Social Security and the free movement of people and capital will allow Andorran pensioners to settle or reside in any European country under the same conditions as their nationals.

so I'd think it'll be both ways after the transitory phase.

I heard from a friend in Bruxelles that before Ukraine will join, they will do a whole restructuring of the EU membership levels...
there will be 3 levels of EU membership soon:
- inner circle (founders and old members)
- outer circle
- associate members (will join European single market without being full member on a country by country agreement, like this Andorra and San Marino agreement. I heard plenty in Bruxelles are masturbating about UK signing this soon to "freely" access the EU market...)

Even at associate membership level, you will be subjected to the European Court of Justice, you will have to participate to some programs, you'll have to put some money on the plate, you'll have to align to certain policies regarding for example "school, environment, culture"... I mean it's written exactly like that in the press release.
And if you don't comply with it get ready to pay HUGE fines

Also I don't believe a single thing about keeping current "tax haven" levels in the long term. Never forget president of France is a co-prince (head of state)...

(from wikipedia)
Powers the co-princes may exercise in conjunction with the head of government include:

- Calling for elections or referendums in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Appointing the head of government in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Dissolve the General Council (the Andorran legislature) prior to the expiration of its current term (but not until at least one year has passed since the prior election);
- Accrediting diplomatic representatives from Andorra to foreign states, and receive credentials of foreign representatives to Andorra;
- Appointing office-holders in accordance with appropriate constitutional provisions;
- Sanctioning and enacting laws in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Granting formal consent to international treaties, once ratified by the General Council.

In 2009, French president Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to abdicate as French co-prince if the principality did not change its banking laws to eliminate its longstanding status as a tax haven

polonieth · Dec 24, 2023

I wouldn't limit it to just micro states, the EU is trying to subdue all member states in one way or another, just the little guys are easier to pick off.

Konstanz · Dec 24, 2023

marioIT said:
the text of the agreement is still not public, not even drafts.
I heard that Andorra was able to get a transitory period of 2 years about free movement of people and visa/customs/border controls.
So after the ratification things will stay like now for 2 years, then things will change.
Referendum will be held in mid 2024. If it passes (likely) we're talking more likely 2026/2027 when real stuff will start changing.

the gov website says this:

so I'd think it'll be both ways after the transitory phase.

I heard from a friend in Bruxelles that before Ukraine will join, they will do a whole restructuring of the EU membership levels...
there will be 3 levels of EU membership soon:
- inner circle (founders and old members)
- outer circle
- associate members (will join European single market without being full member on a country by country agreement, like this Andorra and San Marino agreement. I heard plenty in Bruxelles are masturbating about UK signing this soon to "freely" access the EU market...)

Even at associate membership level, you will be subjected to the European Court of Justice, you will have to participate to some programs, you'll have to put some money on the plate, you'll have to align to certain policies regarding for example "school, environment, culture"... I mean it's written exactly like that in the press release.
And if you don't comply with it get ready to pay HUGE fines

Also I don't believe a single thing about keeping current "tax haven" levels in the long term. Never forget president of France is a co-prince (head of state)...

(from wikipedia)
Powers the co-princes may exercise in conjunction with the head of government include:

- Calling for elections or referendums in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Appointing the head of government in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Dissolve the General Council (the Andorran legislature) prior to the expiration of its current term (but not until at least one year has passed since the prior election);
- Accrediting diplomatic representatives from Andorra to foreign states, and receive credentials of foreign representatives to Andorra;
- Appointing office-holders in accordance with appropriate constitutional provisions;
- Sanctioning and enacting laws in accordance with constitutional provisions;
- Granting formal consent to international treaties, once ratified by the General Council.

In 2009, French president Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to abdicate as French co-prince if the principality did not change its banking laws to eliminate its longstanding status as a tax haven

I think free movement is interesting for those who have EU citizenship. So, the person having EU citizenship could move there without requiring investing 600kEUR
Andorra already have tax rate of 10%.

That is why I think Monaco stopped this agreement

jafo · Dec 24, 2023

<They> are trying to culturally enrich Andorra, San Marino, and Monaco as they did Portugal.

Those who understand Portuguese will be shocked!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738479175344808233
PS. My relatives in Portugal are so f*cked

Konstanz · Dec 24, 2023

jafo said:
<They> are trying to culturally enrich Andorra, San Marino, and Monaco as they did Portugal.

Those who understand Portuguese will be shocked!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738479175344808233
PS. My relatives in Portugal are so f*cked

Sad to see. I understand why Monaco rejected this offer

Don · Dec 24, 2023

jafo said:
<They> are trying to culturally enrich Andorra, San Marino, and Monaco as they did Portugal.

PS. My relatives in Portugal are so f*cked

I hope they are at least not f*cked by dogs like in Germany: https://twitter.com/x/status/1559457411647389698
There are more dogs in the United States (76M) than children under 18 (73M). Over 38% of households have at least one dog. 30% of households have at least one child. What happens in the US is a great indicator of understanding the whole West in general.

The number of children per woman in the Netherlands now stands at 1,49.

The Catholic church is nowadays more known as a paedophile organization than a teacher of moral values. Only in Spain, the research has revealed 440k victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

Muslims have the highest fertility rate of any religious group – an average of 2.9 children per woman. It's around the same level you have in Israel.

Simply put, atheist/Christian white people have degenerated and are being replaced by more sexually capable specimens. All this is happening through natural selection, further boosted by migration. It seems like an unwritten but effective EU policy.

Saudis are, at the same time, welcoming refugees with bullets.

I guess the microstates will be moving in the same direction as the rest of the EU.

noname · Dec 25, 2023

Don said:
I hope they are at least not f*cked by dogs like in Germany: https://twitter.com/x/status/1559457411647389698
There are more dogs in the United States (76M) than children under 18 (73M). Over 38% of households have at least one dog. 30% of households have at least one child. What happens in the US is a great indicator of understanding the whole West in general.

The number of children per woman in the Netherlands now stands at 1,49.

The Catholic church is nowadays more known as a paedophile organization than a teacher of moral values. Only in Spain, the research has revealed 440k victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

Muslims have the highest fertility rate of any religious group – an average of 2.9 children per woman. It's around the same level you have in Israel.

Simply put, atheist/Christian white people have degenerated and are being replaced by more sexually capable specimens. All this is happening through natural selection, further boosted by migration. It seems like an unwritten but effective EU policy.

Saudis are, at the same time, welcoming refugees with bullets.

I guess the microstates will be moving in the same direction as the rest of the EU.

This video of protest in Germany is disgusting and what you said unfortunately true. No religion in the world tell you to do bad or sick things. But some people are totally off the right way. If you believe in God well Doomsday is coming signs are everywhere.

meze99 · Dec 25, 2023

jafo said:
Those who understand Portuguese will be shocked!

The guy who speaks in this video knows nothing about immigrants from Mozambique, they speak Portuguese at a native level, and he claims they don't know a word of Portuguese.

jafo · Dec 25, 2023

meze99 said:
The guy who speaks in this video knows nothing about immigrants from Mozambique, they speak Portuguese at a native level, and he claims they don't know a word of Portuguese.

I'm going to start with the disclaimer that I don't know ANYTHING about Mozambique - NOTHING AT ALL, but a few cursory searches landed me here or something similar:

Now, extrapolating this into "some" of the Dutch colonies, for example, it makes sense (to me). I don't think 50% of the residents in the Dutch colonies speak Dutch fluently. Maybe 10% of the population and this is a stretch based on my personal experience.

Also, the Dutch Autochtonen HATE it when the residents of the former colonies immigrate to the Netherlands, based on my experiences confabulating with Autochtonen and hearing their statements of dissatisfaction on the subject. I hold NO opinion on this. I've never lived in the Netherlands, I don't live in the Netherlands, and I will NEVER live in the Netherlands, so none of this affects me, therefore I neither form nor hold any opinion on it.

In another example based on decades of personal experience, I can affirm that e.g. in Brazil, less than 20% of the population can write a 5-page knowledgeable article on the subject they are "experts" in without making barbaric solecisms.

wellington · Dec 26, 2023

If they didn’t import migrants from the third world and allowed the elderly to die off - in a generation or two the system would have resolved itself - instead they had open borders whilst stating they were stopping it for a generation, the migrants didn’t integrate and added to the state burden which is already falling apart.

So they made their own mess - I can’t imagine any country would seemingly through its electorate want to join such a shitshow as it is Germany will disintegrate within 15 yrs taking the EU with it.

The European Union is structurally supported by Germany, and to a degree France - France always looks to its own interests and as Germany’s industrial machine continues to be moved to the US its lack of population growth and its lack of natural energy resources - it will collapse.

But interestingly Germany recently launched its first offensive military apparatus since World War Two restrictions were placed - so who knows - perhaps we will see a expansionist Germany again in the future as it tries to obtain energy security…

EU pushing hard to subdue microstates... Andorra, Monaco and San Marino

marioIT

well-known Member

Konstanz

JohnnyDoe

Schrödinger's guy

marioIT

well-known Member

polonieth

Konstanz

jafo

Konstanz

Don

noname

Active Member

meze99

jafo

wellington

EU pushing hard to subdue microstates... Andorra, Monaco and San Marino

well-known Member

Schrödinger's guy

well-known Member

Active Member

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency