EU Passport without TIN -- Heavenly Situation?

[ontherun]

Say a person holds an EU passport but has never set foot in that country so does not have a TIN... for example, someone born in Qatar to a Polish mother. Gets a Polish passport from the embassy in Qatar but never subsequently lives in Poland. How will anybody report this guy under CRS?? Isn't this a wonderful solution??

 

[Gediminas]

Say a person holds an EU passport but has never set foot in that country so does not have a TIN... for example, someone born in Qatar to a Polish mother. Gets a Polish passport from the embassy in Qatar but never subsequently lives in Poland. How will anybody report this guy under CRS?? Isn't this a wonderful solution??

Hi, It's not about citizenship, but about tax residency.

 

[Joe Blasco]

Say a person holds an EU passport but has never set foot in that country so does not have a TIN... for example, someone born in Qatar to a Polish mother. Gets a Polish passport from the embassy in Qatar but never subsequently lives in Poland. How will anybody report this guy under CRS?? Isn't this a wonderful solution??

they will ask for your TIN either at the bank or some other service ( notary, stock investment company, accountancy office etc) no TIN no service. Ofcourse you can improvise a nimber at your own risk...

 

[daxbr]

Say a person holds an EU passport but has never set foot in that country so does not have a TIN... for example, someone born in Qatar to a Polish mother. Gets a Polish passport from the embassy in Qatar but never subsequently lives in Poland. How will anybody report this guy under CRS?? Isn't this a wonderful solution??

Your specific situation won't work. It gets assigned automatically.

 

[KJK]

The TIN (or PESEL in the case of Poland) definitely does not get assigned automatically. It is usually assigned at the time of your first contact with the tax office. If you are a foreigner, you also should have a residential address in the country.

If you are e.g. someone born in Qatar to Polish parents, you are eligible for Polish passport (definitely not Qatari btw), if you are baby that was just born, you do not have a PESEL number.

However in the end it doesn't really matter, what really matters is your residence and not your citizenship (with the exception of USA, Eritrea and Hungary) as Gediminas already correctly mentioned. The country doesn't have such powers over you, it is no longer a soviet republic with barbed fence at the borders.

 

[BlueMist]

The TIN (or PESEL in the case of Poland) definitely does not get assigned automatically. It is usually assigned at the time of your first contact with the tax office. If you are a foreigner, you also should have a residential address in the country.

If you are e.g. someone born in Qatar to Polish parents, you are eligible for Polish passport (definitely not Qatari btw), if you are baby that was just born, you do not have a PESEL number.

However in the end it doesn't really matter, what really matters is your residence and not your citizenship (with the exception of USA, Eritrea and Hungary) as Gediminas already correctly mentioned. The country doesn't have such powers over you, it is no longer a soviet republic with barbed fence at the borders.

Let me clear this incorrect informations provided above. PESEL number IS AUTOMATICALLY assigned to every Polish person the moment this person is registered with official authorities after the birth. That means "e.g. someone born in Qatar to Polish parents" WILL NEVER get Polish passport without having PESEL issued first. Only temporary issued passports for newborns wouldn't require to have PESEL number, however such passport would be totally worthless for Polish parents living in Qatar, as although it would allow them to leave Qatar for holidays, their newborn would never be able to get back to Qatar with this temporary passport. Also residence visa stamping is not possible on such temporary passports for newborns.

 

[ontherun]

@BlueMist and @KJK thanks for your hands-on information. In this particular case, it is indeed said that the PESEL is automatically assigned. Even on the Embassy's website. However, the person involved definitely not does have a PESEL until today. What may have happened is that the consular officer at that time assumed that the (then) child would be flying to Poland on short notice and they did not bother registering the child for a PESEL right there, right then.

It is true that the country of Residence matters, however I do wonder how this really plays out in real-world terms since I know that almost all bank risk managers simply bin or ignore requests that come in with incorrect TINs...

 

[BlueMist]

@BlueMist and @KJK thanks for your hands-on information. In this particular case, it is indeed said that the PESEL is automatically assigned. Even on the Embassy's website. However, the person involved definitely not does have a PESEL until today. What may have happened is that the consular officer at that time assumed that the (then) child would be flying to Poland on short notice and they did not bother registering the child for a PESEL right there, right then.
[...]

No, this is not possible. Temporary passports are usually issued for children below 1 year old and are valid for maximum 12 months. You can apply for it just once, after that a full passport is required, which won't be issued without PESEL. It is possible that the person concerned doesn't have a polish passport at all.

 

[Joe Blasco]

15-20 years ago TIN was not automatically given to every newborn. So if over 20 -25 and never lived in the country nor bothered to apply , there is a good chance somebody is not being issued with a TIN

 

[BlueMist]

15-20 years ago TIN was not automatically given to every newborn. So if over 20 -25 and never lived in the country nor bothered to apply , there is a good chance somebody is not being issued with a TIN

Yes but we are talking about the PAST here. Prior to 2010, so before biometric passports were launched in Poland, PESEL was not mandatory for passport application. but since 2010 it is required. What happens with those who weren't forced to get PESEL upon their passports renewal - I have no idea.

But it's not a choice these days whether we want to get it or not. Registering child's birth (in Poland) automatically triggers PESEL issuance.

 

[Joe Blasco]

Yes but we are talking about the PAST here. Prior to 2010, so before biometric passports were launched in Poland, PESEL was not mandatory for passport application. but since 2010 it is required. What happens with those who weren't forced to get PESEL upon their passports renewal - I have no idea.

But it's not a choice these days whether we want to get it or not. Registering child's birth (in Poland) automatically triggers PESEL issuance.

I assume no child of 10 -15 years is writing and requesting advice from this forum but some adult businessman so the info about the past is quite relevant. Secondly not sure exactly about Poland but I do know something about passports and citizenships , usually to renew a passport a tax number is not needed just the old passport and ID or in some countries certificate of citizenship.

 

[BlueMist]

I assume no child of 10 -15 years is writing and requesting advice from this forum but some adult businessman so the info about the past is quite relevant. Secondly not sure exactly about Poland but I do know something about passports and citizenships , usually to renew a passport a tax number is not needed just the old passport and ID or in some countries certificate of citizenship.

I agree this could be relevant to a very tiny % of “lost souls” (such person basically do not exist). But I was more referring to the 1st post which is written in a tone like it would be possible these days or like we could decide about our kids to have it or not. This is not the case.

Now just imagine all those pregnant mothers traveling to US to give a birth there. They have pretty much sorted their kids tax position for a lifetime ;-)

 

[daxbr]

What happens with those who weren't forced to get PESEL upon their passports renewal - I have no idea.

They were given one at next renewal without asking or even knowing they got one.

One side note on this subject, years before TIN, there was something called a consular passport that confirmed overseas residency and auromatically exempt holders from taxes if they stay out of eu for more than 6 months. Those lucky few count their blessings every year.

 

[hernanday]

If you truly wanted to evade crs, just do business out of a trust account. As in go to the bank, claim you are holding the money in trust for customers, which are offshore llcs you control with nominees and all. Have documents in tow and all that.

 

[jscargo]

I am in a similar situation, 2 citizenships, neither Poland nor Qatar. A few years ago it was possible to open bank accounts in some countries (neither of the ones I held citizenship)without providing a TIN. In one of the countries where I have citizenship, I have never had a TIN.
But, currently, it doesn't make any difference, because whenever I try to open a bank account with that citizenship, I am requested to provide a TIN. Then, I provide the TIN of my country of tax residency.