Anywhere in the Med (EU) to rent long-term without becoming tax resident?

[OKboomer]

Is it viable to buy or rent for the long-term a villa in some nice locality in the Med (EU) without risking to become considered a tax resident there?

Locations considered Spain, France, Italy.

Is buying or renting something via an offshore company going to lead to enquiries from tax authorities in these places? We are discussing options without obtaining actual residence permits there, nor opening any local bank accounts. Just quietly renting long-term. Or can one actually expect stuff like literal surveillance or local bureaucrats investigating for potential tax liabilities?

any thoughts?

 

[daniels27]

Yes, it is possible.

Why not just ask your mother, sister, brother, son, cousin or some sick homeless to sign a rent agreement for you in those places and then pay the money from some stupid EMI that only shows Currency Cloud as sender? Or walk to the bank and pay in the money in person or whatever?

 

[OKboomer]

Yes, it is possible.

Why not just ask your mother, sister, brother, son, cousin or some sick homeless to sign a rent agreement for you in those places and then pay the money from some stupid EMI that only shows Currency Cloud as sender? Or walk to the bank and pay in the money in person or whatever?

thanks, well for instance in France every agent asked for a "dossier" for that would be relative or homeless person and they would not accept any non-straightforward option like I live in the EU, earn a salary and pay taxes. Talked to quite a few agents, always with the same outcome. So just a story like "my retired mother or father will be renting this and they have some offshore companies paying dividends" or anything of the sort was not to the liking of the agents...

They also mentioned that on top of that, whoever would be signing the rental contract would need to declare themselves to the tax authorities, so if we talk about non-trivial (by these countries' standards) rental charges of 10-15k a month, then they would have to explain themselves to the tax authorities and explain their source of income?

 

[Martin Everson]

Locations considered Spain, France, Italy.

All tax hells with gestapo tax officers. Not worth it. Visit when you need to and rent when you need to.

 

[OKboomer]

All tax hells with gestapo tax officers. Not worth it. Visit when you need to and rent when you need to.

That is what I have been doing, but getting older and this is becoming more tiresome. In the proper 0 tax jurisdiction I am getting a mediocre apartment for the price of a gorgeous villa elsewhere.

I do that since I am fully cognizant of the rip-off taxes on-shore and I understand that it is likely to only get worse, but still there are so many small to medium problems with rental options in zero-tax places that it becomes a major annoyance, when you live there long term. And places where those problems do not exist are at least 2x more expensive than the already super overpriced regular rental options in 0 tax places.

It's a good problem to have, don't get me wrong, but after a while becomes a chronic nuisance

 

[toums]

hmm well, i think low risk..

TILL you have other permanent house in other country/ies + not spending 183days+ in any of them and no close family living there and no business/big income there (and no citizenship)...

Low chance they could challenge you. Nothing prohibits having a secondary or tertiary residence... till you respect the criteria above

 

[kislokan]

If you have a Schengen zone visa the only option is to move countries before the 183 rule kicks in as far as I’m aware

 

[daniels27]

If you have a Schengen zone visa the only option is to move countries before the 183 rule kicks in as far as I’m aware

Almost all Schengen countries require you to register as resident when you rent an apartment. And the taxes kick in with the registration alone. In theory.

The 183 rules are mainly from the treaties but that does not help much if you want to pay nowehere.

Honestly, yes all is doable, but there always are risks. My best advice is to rent through a company or your mother or whatever. For sure don't go with any of those agents. Just get on the plane and look on the ground, you will find a solution there. If not, let me know.

 

[kislokan]

does that depend on the length of the rental contract though? For example if you rent in Spain through a private company say 3 - 6 months surely you wouldn’t have to register in that case?

 

[daniels27]

does that depend on the length of the rental contract though? For example if you rent in Spain through a private company say 3 - 6 months surely you wouldn’t have to register in that case?

I think it mainly depends on the country.

In Spain, you can stay 3 months without registration
https://administracion.gob.es/pag_H...tencion-residencia/inscribirte-residente.html
https://administracion.gob.es/pag_H...igaciones/ciudadanos/residencia/estancia.html

You need to check here

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...s-formalities/reporting-presence/index_en.htm
Reporting presence for short stays of less than 3 months
Some EU countries require you to report your presence to the relevant authorities (often the town hall or local police station) within a reasonable period of time after arrival and may impose a penalty, such as a fine if you fail to do so.

 

[JackAlabama]

Is it viable to buy or rent for the long-term a villa in some nice locality in the Med (EU) without risking to become considered a tax resident there?

Locations considered Spain, France, Italy.

Is buying or renting something via an offshore company going to lead to enquiries from tax authorities in these places? We are discussing options without obtaining actual residence permits there, nor opening any local bank accounts. Just quietly renting long-term. Or can one actually expect stuff like literal surveillance or local bureaucrats investigating for potential tax liabilities?

any thoughts?

idk abt france, but the other two you can have permanent homes in them. Its one thing keeping these places halfway afloat (foreigners owning holiday homes).

Just make sure you arent there for too long, do what joe retried does, stay there for a while over the cold winter of north europe / us or use it as summer holiday home if the heat is your thing (its too hot for many).

regarding rent, it can be bureaucratic depending on your circumstances but by shopping around you will find help.

 

[bizman]

Yes, it is possible.

Why not just ask your mother, sister, brother, son, cousin or some sick homeless to sign a rent agreement for you in those places and then pay the money from some stupid EMI that only shows Currency Cloud as sender? Or walk to the bank and pay in the money in person or whatever?

you never want to involve your family members in your business transactions or general business! Rule no 1 - unless you want to harm them or get rid of them.

Homeless guy is perfect or you find some retard's in the UK that are willing to sign any contract, there are so many of them, more suggestions you can find inside the mento group gold for your interest.

Depending on how long you plan to rent some apartment I don't see any problem with making it so complicated anyway.

 

[daniels27]

you never want to involve your family members in your business transactions or general business! Rule no 1 - unless you want to harm them or get rid of them.

Why not? Walt Disney and Warner Bros are both iconic, legendary and successful.

 

[bizman]

just too stupid answer, increasing post count game

Why not? Walt Disney and Warner Bros are both iconic, legendary and successful.

 

[daniels27]

[ungrounded accusations]

Could you maybe elaborate why you do not agree with my proposition to partner up? It is an honest question.

 

[bizman]

different purpose. You compare apple and bananas

 

[daniels27]

you never want to involve your family members in your business transactions or general business! Rule no 1 - unless you want to harm them or get rid of them.

But we are not talking about "business", we are talking about a private room rental. What is wrong with doing that? Why do you think it will harm them?

Many people did it, Boris Becker just one of them. And did his sister get grilled? No, he did.
https://staatenlos.ch/lifestyle/der-fall-boris-becker-der-schluessel-zur-steuerhinterziehung/

 

[Konstanz]

Is it viable to buy or rent for the long-term a villa in some nice locality in the Med (EU) without risking to become considered a tax resident there?

Locations considered Spain, France, Italy.

Is buying or renting something via an offshore company going to lead to enquiries from tax authorities in these places? We are discussing options without obtaining actual residence permits there, nor opening any local bank accounts. Just quietly renting long-term. Or can one actually expect stuff like literal surveillance or local bureaucrats investigating for potential tax liabilities?

any thoughts?

Rent in Monaco - 0% tax risk. Many people rent there even without being resident. For 10-15k month budget you will get pretty nice rental.

 

[daniels27]

Depending on how long you plan to rent some apartment I don't see any problem with making it so complicated anyway.

As far as I understand his question

Is it viable to buy or rent for the long-term a villa in some nice locality in the Med (EU) without risking to become considered a tax resident there?

I think he is planning to have it long-term.

 

[daniels27]

@bizman. nice meeting you. I think you are a very cool long-term guy here and many could learn from your experience. But I have a question. Do I bother you with my presence? I felt quite offended by your last messages. I am here to enjoy people rather than the opposite and I am here to give and learn. I appreciate your advice, but my question was with good intent as I wanted to know why you think renting on the family members is not good.