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Relocation to Portugal? Or maybe Malta or Andorra?

#21
blast629 said:
Thanks for your idea, but my idea is to move to 1 country and don't keep on moving across the other 3.

My end goal is not to live in Portugal, Malta or Andorra. They are means, not ultimate goals by themselves.

I am looking for a residence where I can truly live, visit Spain from time to time and travel to some other countries I may want to.

Not planning to live in 4 countries at same time. 2 would be fine though (I guess I would need a 3rd one not to fire the 183 days rule)

Thanks again!
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You must check the exact requirements; I just put it as a theory. I think PT and Malta have the 183-day rule.

In general, this setup works. Digital Nomad moved out of Spain to Latin America (he has his residency there, address, and tax certificate) and now travels Europe. If they ask, you want to have a story for an ES hacienda. ES-PY DTA + tax certificate proves you live here. Then, stay below the radar in the countries where you're going to stay, close to ES.
 
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#22
blast629 said:
My end goal is not to live in Portugal, Malta or Andorra. They are means, not ultimate goals by themselves.

I am looking for a residence where I can truly live.
Click to expand...

I have very hard time understanding what do you want.

If you want to move to a country where you don't really want to live because what you really want is to stay in Spain you'll be miserable.

Been there, done that.
 
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#24
NewHorizonsParaguay said:
You must check the exact requirements; I just put it as a theory. I think PT and Malta have the 183-day rule.

In general, this setup works. Digital Nomad moved out of Spain to Latin America (he has his residency there, address, and tax certificate) and now travels Europe. If they ask, you want to have a story for an ES hacienda. ES-PY DTA + tax certificate proves you live here. Then, stay below the radar in the countries where you're going to stay, close to ES.
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Understood.

Basically have an story, and if you want to proof that you live out of Spain, you would need certificates/tickets of going in and out of the country, and probably proof of being in other countries is also good, to make that PY certificate to work.

I think this approach mainly focus on making PY a "paper residence" since it is cheap. Then, live outside in Spain wherever, but below the 183 day threshold, and specially tracking Spain visits so if the Hacienda comes you have an story.

Could be an option, but I would prefer just to relocate myself to whatever the country and have the papers there. The less game, the less risks (I guess).
Marzio said:
I have very hard time understanding what do you want.

If you want to move to a country where you don't really want to live because what you really want is to stay in Spain you'll be miserable.

Been there, done that.
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I think I was not clear. My reply was after NewHorizonsParaguay suggested to be 3 months on each country.

What I mean is: none of the countries are my end goal, so I am okay to live on any of them, but no need to be on all of them across the year.

My idea is either live PT and visit Spain, or live in Malta and visit Spain or live in Andorra and visit Spain, but live 3 months Portugal + 3 months Spain + 3 months Malta + 3 months Andorra is not what I need.

Just need 1 country to live with low taxes, which is sort of near to Spain. Just that. And afaik, it could either be Malta, Andorra or Portugal.

Move there. Settle there. Come back to Spain for vacations.

I just want to find a place where:

1) I can physically relocate (more than paper residency)
2) Find a good structure for my income so to pay low taxes (either plain as Andorra, either IFICI+whatever in Portugal, non-dom in Malta, etc)
3) Have the ability to use the income to buy real state and cars in wherever place i relocate (therefore MT, PT or AD)
4) Have the ability to visit back Spain easily (good connection by road or plane), so I can visit Spain on some months of the year (basically summer and maybe Christmas)

Hope it makes more sense now!!
MarkusCostigan said:
Are you a citizen of which country? Before proceeding with the residency, it is important to know if the country where you want to take up residency is not considered "black list for natural persons" (Andorra for many countries for example.)
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I am a citizen of Spain.

That is why I need to discard Gibraltar for example.

Thank you all!
 
#26
maxxs said:
Hi OP. Im in similar situation to you.
I think Andorra is best choice but your income may be too low, and Andorra is no bueno if youre single.
Id probably check Cyprus. Or portugal a couple years then somewhere else.
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Hi mate.

Are you also coming from Spain as well? Similar income level? Similar profession? Hopefully we can find a solution together!!

Precisely I found 2 issues about Andorra:

1) Few young people (mostly couples >35/40), since most people get out of the country for studying and stays abroad.

2) Pricy housing, which for the income level, makes either living on a ""modest"" flat or pretty much spend all the savings on housing.

I considered Cyprus, but the problem I am finding is that plane connections to Spain are much worse than Malta ones. And, at least on paper, how is Cyprus substantially better than Malta for example? (Malta is smaller, but plane tickets are super cheap).

Regarding choosing Portugal, and then, depending on the evolution, deciding on where to relocate (all in all, after 10 years you need to leave PT anyways...), is my primary idea.

However, I need to find which corporate structure can suit the PT NHR/IFICI (without costing a fortune in relation to my income).

Thanks & best regards!!
 
#27
NewHorizonsParaguay said:
If you can stay less than 90 days/year in Spain (officially), PY residency is also an option. + As a Spanish citizen, you have potential passport play over time with PY.

With 80- 100k/year, keep setup costs low (Malta, Singapore, even Cyprus can be pretty pricey).
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what if he decide to not stay over 180 days in any country ? like 170 in spain, 170 in portugal and the rest somewhere else?
 
#28
pixbix said:
what if he decide to not stay over 180 days in any country ? like 170 in spain, 170 in portugal and the rest somewhere else?
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Spanish hacienda is tricky. It’s not only days what count (family ties, economic interests). As far I understand they can count also days spent abroad to your tax residency status… unless you prove you have tax residency elsewhere. So he would still need some setup.
 
#30
pixbix said:
what if he decide to not stay over 180 days in any country ? like 170 in spain, 170 in portugal and the rest somewhere else?
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This is a great point.

Also, this is why I clarified my end goal was not to live 3 months in Malta, 3 months in Portugal, 3 months in Andorra and 3 months in Spain.

I would just want to live enough days in Portugal or whatever, and the rest be free to visit Spain, or whatever the country.
NewHorizonsParaguay said:
Spanish hacienda is tricky. It’s not only days what count (family ties, economic interests). As far I understand they can count also days spent abroad to your tax residency status… unless you prove you have tax residency elsewhere. So he would still need some setup.
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It is definitely tricky.

Currently, I am fully invested out of Real State basically because of trying to have as few ties as possible when I leave Spain.

Fortunately as well, I am single, so the family ties is sort of solved.
MarkusCostigan said:
Besides saving taxes on your income, do you have other needs? For example, not disclosing your assets (stocks, crypto etc.)? Are new future EU regulations causing you problems (for example DAC8 etc.)?
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To me, assets privacy is always great. They can't take what they don't know you have.

In this regard, I am definetely willing to pay an extra to protect myself from disclosing assets (I mean, it depends if it is 20k a year or if it is somewhat reasonable for my income), as well from future EU dicta... Sorry, regulations, I mean regulations.

Hope this clarifies!!

Thank you all for your help and ideas!
 
#32
#33
blast629 said:
Just need 1 country to live with low taxes, which is sort of near to Spain. Just that.
Click to expand...

What about moving to Gibraltar?

You can spend all days in Marbella and be back home to sleep in Gibraltar.

GIB company's CIT is 15%

You'll then pay PIT on the amount you decide to take for yourself.

This is how i would start.

The next step would be to stop using the GIB company to be the operational company and instead use it as a holding company and form a subsidiary in Ceuta.

Ceuta, is the spanish enclave in Morocco on the other side of the mediterreanean pond.

The best thing about Ceuta is that it has a 50% discount on spanish CIT meaning you'll pay 12% CIT on all the business generated from Ceuta.

The benefit is that 12% is a little better than 15% that you'll pay in GIB but the real kicker is that since that income will come from a subsidiary it will be tax free in GIB both on CIT and PIT level meaning your total taxation will be 12%.

Not bad.

You will need to hire somedoy in Ceuta that will pretend to do the job so it's not a structure that you can start at your income level but surely is way better than moving with sheeps in Andorra or a solution that will only last for 10 years with NHR.
 
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#34
Marzio said:
What about moving to Gibraltar?

You can spend all days in Marbella and be back home to sleep in Gibraltar.

GIB company's CIT is 15%

You'll then pay PIT on the amount you decide to take for yourself.

This is how i would start.

The next step would be to stop using the GIB company to be the operational company and instead use it as a holding company and form a subsidiary in Ceuta.

Ceuta, is the spanish enclave in Morocco on the other side of the mediterreanean pond.

The best thing about Ceuta is that it has a 50% discount on spanish CIT meaning you'll pay 12% CIT on all the business generated from Ceuta.

The benefit is that 12% is a little better than 15% that you'll pay in GIB but the real kicker is that since that income will come from a subsidiary it will be tax free in GIB both on CIT and PIT level meaning your total taxation will be 12%.

Not bad.

You will need to hire somedoy in Ceuta that will pretend to do the job so it's not a structure that you can start at your income level but surely is way better than moving with sheeps in Andorra or a solution that will only last for 10 years with NHR.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the great idea.

There is a catch however: for Spanish taxpayers, the Spanish Hacienda has Gibraltar in the blacklist, which means they will consider you a Spanish taxpayer for the next 4 years.

Which basically means the Gibraltar setup could be suitable after being in Portugal or Andorra for some time, but not for a direct change.

Spanish Hacienda always trying their best to persecute!

I mean, even at a 15% corporate income, if I am not forced to take a lot into salary, the summed income tax will probably be low, so will probably be below the 20%... Which is more than okay to me (compared to my current situation, which summing Social Security and Income Tax is rounding the 45-50%)

Any idea around this? Because to my eye, at least for my first years, it seems like MT, AD and PT are still the only choice, although some extra doors open after the "cut" with the Spanish Hacienda, opening the door to be in for example, Gibraltar.

Thanks again Marzio!
 
#35
blast629 said:
which means they will consider you a Spanish taxpayer for the next 4 years.
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You should speak with a tax lawyer because there's a one year old double tax treaty between GIB and Spain so maybe even if GIB is still in blacklist double taxation could be eliminated.

If you don't want any complications move to Portugal, form a US LLC and wait until the time is right to move to GIB.
 
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#36
Marzio said:
You should speak with a tax lawyer because there's a one year old double tax treaty between GIB and Spain so maybe even if GIB is still in blacklist double taxation could be eliminated.

If you don't want any complications move to Portugal, form a US LLC and wait until the time is right to move to GIB.
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Thanks Marzio.

Didn't know about the new double tax treaty with Gibraltar, but since I found this (non-cooperative/blacklisted jurisdictions), thought it was still an issue:

https://sede.agenciatributaria.gob....es/anexos/jurisdicciones-no-cooperativas.html

Any tax lawyer you could recommend yourself for this? Have got in touch with a couple and i see 2 variants:

1) They say you can do anything and everything, which is basically false

2) They say you can do nothing at all

And well, according to the forum itself, there is a wide variety of greys in between both 1 and 2!! Being hard to find the right person though.

Anyhow, the first move to PT, I think it is the path I will be following. All in all, once in PT, I can freely relocate afterwards to Gibraltar!

Thanks again
 
#38
Marzio said:
I think it's the best choice in the short term.
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Thanks again. Do the VTZ in Georgia make any more sense than the US LLC? (In the sense it may be safer since dividends are taxed at a 5% if I am right). I don't mind paying a bit extra if safer.

I think the court cases which recognize the LLCs are focused for "partners" not sole owners? Would I be safer if I get a partner with a 5 or 10%?

Basically my idea is something like:

20k - Portuguese Limited --> mostly flows to my personal income at the 20% IFICI rate + Social Security (needed anyhow to comply with IFICI requirements)

60k - US LLC / VTZ Georgia --> comes at a 0% as dividends thanks to IFICI treatment (5% if VTZ)

Does it make any sense?

Thanks in advanced!
 
#39
If with VTZ you mean Georgia virtual zone then it doesn't make any sense for your actual level of income because developers must be hired in Georgia for the virtual zone status to be recognized and unless you want to move there, you can't afford a developer salary.

Even in Georgia.

I would go straight with US LLC distributing dividends and that's it.

You are staying there for 4 years, 100K a year is really pocket money for them to go against you.

After 4 years leave and start clean in GIB.
 
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